Clutch Foot Positioning for MT

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Purdue FR-S

Minor Fault (-2 Points)

Cause I laugh with my eyes.

[daiheadjai]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

You're supposed to be watching where you're going, not laughing at your feet.

And if I wear clown shoes?

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

[Ubersuber]

This thread is weird enough I was prompted to actually notice what I do.

If one is intending to accelerate up or down through the gears it makes sense to keep your foot "on" the clutch pedal without actually putting any weight on it (I actually just position my foot a mm or two above the pedal to ensure I'm not engaging the release bearing, I have my pedal lowered). Once you have finished accelerating or decelerating then you move your left foot onto the dead pedal.

Whether you rest your heel on the floor or not depends more on the size of your foot than anything to do with clutch control. Certainly you should use your leg to depress the clutch and not just your toe, while you definitely flex your ankle on the way back up when engaging the clutch if you want a smooth engagement. So, as you depress the clutch I don't see how you could leave your heel on the floor because moving your leg moves your entire foot towards the front of the footwell.

A very fast Italian mechanic (amateur racer) I knew many years ago drove with both heels off the floor all the time when he was pressing on. He was very, very quick and like many short men had relatively small feet. If you are familiar with the steering wheel and pedal layout favoured by Italians years ago (and still prevalent today to some degree) you can see how driving in this way is easy when the front edge of the seat cushion is raised, as it is in Italian cars. You drive them with your knees up and your hips down low (and shuffling the bottom half of the steering wheel through your hands, never touching the top of the wheel which you can't reach anyway) and that turns out to be a very comfortable driving position giving excellent control (which reminds me that the front edge of my Subie seat is always too low, it needs to tilt up at the front by about one half inch to be truly perfect, but then I have driven a few Italian cars and prefer their seating orientation).

[cuddefred]

Not trying to score points or cause another argument here but I have driven manuals for 36 years, averaging over 30000 miles per year, which is a lot of miles!!! Now live in Oz but was a cop in the UK for many years, driving high performance manual cars as a police Advanced Driver.

I don't know where Paul gets his ideas from but if I had left my foot resting on the clutch I would still be walking the beat as I would never have gained a police licence (or ordinary Uk licence) in the first place! Similarly if I didn't have two hands on the wheel at all times except for changing gear. This includes eating food, drinking, changing the stereo etc. etc. - all are against the law!

My method for changing gear is to leave the ball of my left foot in the same place at all times. When driving normally I rest it on the dead pedal (if fitted because the didn't used to be) and when changing gear, simply swivel the foot over to the clutch, as this gives a firm anchor to work from and allows a smoother shift. As for it being dangerous to have the left foot off the clutch pedal, I think it is total crap tbh and taking it to nth degree, you could then argue it should be hovering on the brake - and wouldn't that be safe with brake lights on all the time!!! It takes less than 0.5 seconds to move from the dead pedal to fully engaging the clutch. In an emergency braking situation the first thing to do is brake and do it hard! By the time the speed has reduced even slightly you will already have moved and engaged the clutch so there is no problem whatsoever, but please remember to press the clutch in as your speed starts to reduce or you wll lose control by stalling as you come to a stop.

As for not being able to find the pedal, if you can't get your foot on to the pedal which is about 2 inches from and right beside where you were resting it without hesitation, perhaps you shouldn't be driving in the first place

Personally I would be very disappointed if I didn't get at least 100k (miles) out of any clutch.

He does however make valid points about taking the car out of gear and applying the handbrake when stood at traffic lights etc.

As for the bashing of the American drivers, everyone thinks they are the best drivers in the world! In a recent survey 96% of drivers thought that they were average or above average, with 58% of these thinking they were above average, while only 4% thought they were below average. Tells a story in itself and there are good and bad drivers in every part of the world

Practice, practice and more practice is the way to learn but listening to good, safe advice certainly helps. Good luck to all you guys learning your way with a manual for the first time. It isn't that easy to begin with but you will soon get the hang of it.

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by paulca

---snip---

Once stopped, immediately pull the handbrake on and pull the car into neutral. Handbrake, THEN neutral and foot brake off. Do NOT sit with your foot on the foot brake, brake lights have a purpose, distracting and blinding everyone behind you is not one of them unless you are actually braking.

Note, if the stop will be momentary, like less than 15 seconds, leave it in gear. If uphill bite the clutch and sit hill holding on the clutch, if downhill, clutch down and foot brake. If on level, clutch just below the bite, accelerator off. Note that for learners hill holding on the clutch is frowned upon as it's easy to screw up, but when you have experience it's fine, for SHORT periods. If you do it for longer than 10-15 seconds you will find your clutch will heat up, expand and the car will start to roll forward unless you adjust. This will cause excessive clutch wear. Personally I have sat on the clutch on hills for several minutes at a time for a lot of my driving and my last clutch still lasted nearly 60,000 miles before it began to slip. They are NOT easy to brake unless your a completely idiot or repeatedly do hot shifts or clutch pumps and dumps.

There was a recent massive car pile up on a foggy motorway bridge here. Those people sitting stationary who did not have the handbrake on where deemed partly responsible when they shunted the car in front when they got rear ended.

---snip---

I don't even know where to begin.

[Tomcat07]

Though this is the first manual i've owned, its not the first manual i've driven. personally i subscribe to the "if you have found what works best for you without causing damage to the drivetrain or being dangerous on the road... then you are doing just fine" mentality. I dont claim to be an expert in driving MT because im not.

I'm 6'4" with size 13 shoes and i like to press the clutch in with my whole leg, and then heel the floor as i release to find the right engagement point at the right RPM (i have big feet so i feel comfortable doing that). after that i take my foot off the clutch to the dead pedal until the next shift (save 1st to 2nd for short timing) because my big feet get in the way of everything, especially with my steel toe shoes on in the morning. Also, with my big feet and heavy steel toe shoes, its harder to distinguish the difference between the pedal spring and the clutch spring and i don't want to accidentally ride the clutch.

when i downshift, i push the clutch in with my leg, attempt to match the RPMs to the correct amount, and do the same heel to the floor re-engagement as upshifting. Most of the time when i would need to downshift is when i'm slowing down significantly... i just put it in neutral and wait till i've decelerated to the appropriate amount before selecting the appropriate gear, rev matching, and starting the upshift sequence again.

i don't ride the clutch ever. i don't need to how and where i drive. i obviously cant say that doing so is wrong and it may have its merits but i understand that it wears down your clutch contact plates or whatever they are called sooner. i just don't do it.

also i shift slowly since most of my experience with MT is on things like motorcycles and dirtbikes and its a completely different muscle grouping and i'm still learning this car (500 miles driven in the FR-S). I figure once i get to know the car better i'll be able to shift just as smoothly more quickly but that will come in time. I don't press the clutch in super quickly (not that its wrong to do so) because i'm getting off the throttle anyways and there really is no rush. Obviously i press the clutch in quick enough so i don't engine brake.

i feel like this thread got too heated with all the experienced MT drivers who are comfortable with "their" driving style and trying to portray their methods as the CORRECT manual driving technique, and everybody else is WRONG. Really, i feel like its more subjective. you have to feel the car and obviously operate within your countries, laws, limits, and methods. Everyone drives the way that works best for them, i dont think bashing other peoples methods will be constructive to those of us who are new and looking for guidance. with my personal style, i can maneuver the car any way that i require and have confidence that i can drive it anywhere. I dont fear starting on an incline anymore, and i dont worry about stop and go traffic, speedbump alleys, reversing into parking spots, or parallel parking either.

the only "truths" i really know is that:
1) riding your clutch will wear it down sooner (as is the general consensus here)
2) popping the clutch is bad for your drive train also (i suppose people trying to race don't mind though)
3) downshifting into a gear that is too low for your speed is a good way to blow your engine, but i think the FR-S has a shift block to prevent you from doing that.
4) keeping the engine in too high of a gear for low speeds is also bad for your engine.
5) always release the throttle completely when depressing the clutch because your engine will rev up and you will look like an idiot... and then have to wait for the engine to spool down to the correct RPMs for your shift.
6) don't drive with the hand brake still engaged because it wears that down too. (this is obviously true with AT as well, but you use the hand brake less with an AT)
7) dont just release the clutch from a stand still without giving some throttle or you will stall.

using your parking brake on hills, or stop lights, and other things like that are all part of your driving technique that really have no bearing on the drive train components of your car, and wont cause damage. They can be useful, but again, i just figure that you do what feels right for you.

best of luck to my fellow newbies in trying to find your own suitable technique where you feel you have the best, and safest control of your vehicle.

P.S. thanks to those of you who advised against holding onto the stick when not applying force. i did not know that residual pressure can cause damage to the synchronizers and whatnot. clearly i am still learning and that's the kind of advice that is useful to me.

[Vracer111]

I clutch in and clutch out with the whole leg, like you're supposed to do with a clutch...and foot doesn't touch anything but the pedal in the process. Foot resting on foot rest when not clutching. The car has one of the best clutches of any car I've driven... easy and precise to have quick butter smooth shifts.

[HRTROB]

This is how I position my feet. I'm 6'3" with a size 12 shoe size. The stock pedals are perfect

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtZQXs-YFds"]Heel and toe - YouTube[/ame]

[Frishkorn]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Resting your hand on the shifter puts a constant load on the synchronizers and will cause them to wear prematurely. In older four and five speed sports cars like the Triumphs and the MGs, the third gear synchronizers were always the first to go because people would shift through first and second pretty quickly and then rest their hands on the shifters while winding out third more slowly. As a result, it's not uncommon to find these old cars with no third gear sync (or no third gear at all).

The synchros on the 86s may be better quality, but given the number of complaints about failures on the tech board, I'd rather just exercise a good habit of taking my hand off the shifter when not actually using it.



The clutch is a levered system that translates a relatively small amount of force from your foot to a larger amount of force applied against the springs in the pressure plate. Resting your foot on the clutch puts pressure on the throwout bearing and will cause it to wear prematurely.

If you'd rather drive lazy and don't mind replacing the throwout bearing more often, do it however you like. But please don't tell newbies that it's okay to develop your bad habits.

I'm new to driving a manual so loving the guidance. I'm a two hand at all times driver so I don't keep my hand on the shifter. That being said though, how on earth could gently resting your hand be any worse then the shifter bouncing around in sixth gear from a rough freeway? I can rest my hand on the gear shifter and not give it enough force to move it in any direction.

[themajesticone]

Put your foot under the clutch pedal and then press up - works so well

[Frishkorn]

Originally Posted by paulca

Once stopped, immediately pull the handbrake on and pull the car into neutral. Handbrake, THEN neutral and foot brake off. Do NOT sit with your foot on the foot brake, brake lights have a purpose, distracting and blinding everyone behind you is not one of them unless you are actually braking.



There was a recent massive car pile up on a foggy motorway bridge here. Those people sitting stationary who did not have the handbrake on where deemed partly responsible when they shunted the car in front when they got rear ended.

If everyone followed your example of being stopped without depressing the foot brake, that's the cause of the pileup. How on earth do I know you're stopped if your brake lights (which aren't activated by the EMERGENCY / PARKING brake) aren't activated. The EMERGENCY / PARKING brake should only be used in those two scenarios.

[Ubersuber]

Originally Posted by Frishkorn

If everyone followed your example of being stopped without depressing the foot brake, that's the cause of the pileup. How on earth do I know you're stopped if your brake lights (which aren't activated by the EMERGENCY / PARKING brake) aren't activated. The EMERGENCY / PARKING brake should only be used in those two scenarios.

Chill, it's a crazy British thing. They are actually required by law to put the transmission in neutral and apply the handbrake while stationary. Even an automatic transmission!!! Weird I know.

Very weird to think the handbrake is going to do anything if a car is hit by another car. I guess the physics of car crashes are not well understood in the UK either. Heck, you could also put the footbrake on as hard as you, like the crash is still going to move your car as if the brakes weren't on.

[paulca]

The point of handbrake while stationary isn't really to do with being rear ended, that was just insurance companies trying to pass the buck on technicalities.

Sitting with your foot on the foot brake with the brake lights on is distracting and spoils the night vision of those behind you. It's also deemed unsafe to sit in gear when stationary for a period as your foot could slip off the clutch, for various reasons one of which might be getting hit from behind and you would ram the car in front or a pedestrian. If you are not in gear you should have the hand brake on. Note over here we call it the hand brake, not emergency brake or parking brake.

It IS used for other things in a manual. Consider stopping with the foot brake while going up hill in traffic. While you "can" quickly transfer from foot brake to clutch and throttle with virtually no roll back in the eyes of the driving standards people it's unsafe to do so, thus you would use the handbrake while you re-position your feet for clutch bite and throttle, then drop the hand brake to move off. Personally I don't like the transfer from foot brake to clutch hold, so will use the hand brake to hold the car while I get the clutch biting and holding, that's if I can't "catch" the car on the clutch as it stops.

[paulca]

By the way I don't think it's law, it is a "Should" item. (Item 114).
https://www.gov.uk/general-rules-all...nts-113-to-116

Our highway code has some specific wordings, a "MUST" or "MUST NOT" will reference a road traffic act law, but there are many more "Should", "Should not" items which aren't laws but strong recommendations.

Although it depends on how you read item 114, the MUST NOT at the top includes mention of dazzling and then the "should" paragraph refers to dazzling following drivers with your brake lights. It's a bit of a loose one. It does also reference a law, so, YMMV.