Slip angle and car control

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i wonder if that is funny to anybody but us two. also, im kinda glad i have a miata despite what the sheriff thinks about them.

I really should have picked up his rolling chassis s2k

[kiichiro]

Thanks for that.

[Scottemad123]

We know where Mike works now thanks to another article on motoiq hehehe. Lucky SOB

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I really should have picked up his rolling chassis s2k

if i picked up every car i think i should have picked up from that forum...

if i ever get faster than my miata will take me, i havent decided whether to just rotrex it, pick up an s2k or just jump straight to the vette. since im slow as shit, ive got time.

[robot]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I've coached 100% visual drivers. 100% visual drivers are NOT outliers in this day and age... Gran Turismo drivers are all 100% visual. One of these visual drivers I coached was a GT Academy finalist.

This surprises me a bit. Do they just not let the vestibular system "warnings" interrupt their visual "its ok" signals?

I'm reminded of that SOW turn I posed about before (the bowl one). The g-forces pulling me into my seat make me uncomfortable. All of my previous driving experience tells me that when I get a big change in the Z axis feel (up and down) something bad is about to happen.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by robot

This surprises me a bit. Do they just not let the vestibular system "warnings" interrupt their visual "its ok" signals?

I'm reminded of that SOW turn I posed about before (the bowl one). The g-forces pulling me into my seat make me uncomfortable. All of my previous driving experience tells me that when I get a big change in the Z axis feel (up and down) something bad is about to happen.

I believe your vision is faster than your vestibular system at transmitting what you need to know at the limit. I think of it hierarchically, with visual inputs taking precedence over vestibular inputs in terms of initial effectiveness.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by robot

This surprises me a bit. Do they just not let the vestibular system "warnings" interrupt their visual "its ok" signals?

I'm reminded of that SOW turn I posed about before (the bowl one). The g-forces pulling me into my seat make me uncomfortable. All of my previous driving experience tells me that when I get a big change in the Z axis feel (up and down) something bad is about to happen.

They've been "trained" to go with what their eyes tell them. Unless the car starts to understeer or oversteer, everything is "okay" in their mind.

The guy learned shockingly fast; he was matching my hot lap times in 4 laps. As in, his 4th hot lap on track ever.

[glamcem]

like mentioned above great reflexes/talent also never really hurts IMHO ..

and speaking of great reflexes see below video and you can skip it to 3:31 but I would suggest you to watch the whole video if you can at 3:31 you will see the greatest save I've seen in my entire life and guess who's behind that wheel as you can imagine it needs cat-like reflexes and some manberries to drive like that (for the reference I have some amateur rally car experience with small hatchback cars back in 90s since it's the "thing" for many European car enthusiasts and this driver has always been my idol, lol)

[ame="http://youtu.be/QtYsvcojzC8"]http://youtu.be/QtYsvcojzC8[/ame]

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by glamcem

like mentioned above great reflexes/talent also never really hurts IMHO ..

and speaking of great reflexes see below video and you can skip it to 3:31 but I would suggest you to watch the whole video if you can at 3:31 you will see the greatest save I've seen in my entire life and guess who's behind that wheel as you can imagine it needs cat-like reflexes and some manberries to drive like that (for the reference I have some amateur rally car experience with small hatchback cars back in 90s since it's the "thing" for many European car enthusiasts and this driver has always been my idol, lol)

AWD/FWD lets you do things that seem crazy to RWD people.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPCGnkApnDU"]Jason Plato "What A Save" BTCC 2009 Round 1 Race 3 at Brands Hatch - YouTube[/ame]

[robot]

Originally Posted by dradernh

I believe your vision is faster than your vestibular system at transmitting what you need to know at the limit. I think of it hierarchically, with visual inputs taking precedence over vestibular inputs in terms of initial effectiveness.

You may be correct: http://link.springer.com/article/10....221-009-1779-4 (linked from here: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibular_system"]Vestibular system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame])

It is apparently perceived as being slower, but may be faster to integrate (for things like image stabilization in head movement).

(All this discussion makes me wish I could get funding to do an experiment with this stuff)

Mike's comment about the GT academy student is very interesting. I'd love to pick his brain about the learning curve of different aspects of driving for this person. What did they pick up on quicker than others, what did they have trouble with?

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by robot

You may be correct: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00221-009-1779-4 (linked from here: Vestibular system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

It is apparently perceived as being slower, but may be faster to integrate (for things like image stabilization in head movement).

(All this discussion makes me wish I could get funding to do an experiment with this stuff)

Mike's comment about the GT academy student is very interesting. I'd love to pick his brain about the learning curve of different aspects of driving for this person. What did they pick up on quicker than others, what did they have trouble with?

In the context of Mike's experience with a talented visual learner, our local TT club has a member (Andre Gomes) who won the Skip Barber IndyCar Academy Shootout at Sebring the year after he made the GT Academy Finals in 2011. Another member, who I think is the club's best driver, also has had some success in GTA (not sure exactly what that was, as I don't follow GTA, but I understand that people who would know considered him to have real potential). These are their GTA 1-minute bios:

Andre Gomes
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0FNokM63EA"]GT Academy: Andre Gomes - YouTube[/ame]


Nick Fontana
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4CW4GN1QL4"]GT Academy: Nick Fontana - YouTube[/ame]


Nevertheless, in addition to having an exceptional visual cortex, a successful racer will have excellent kinesthetic awareness and skill, a lack of (unreasonable) fear at speed, comfort with high-Gs, technical knowledge, physical fitness, and all of the other factors possessed by drivers with talent.

@robot Re: Acquiring funding to study the subject, maybe it's possible?

[Captain Snooze]

What sort of world do these people live in? I see stuff like this and just want to cry at my own ability. I mean lack there of.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDQatnFUA3E"]Amazing Reactions by Dino Zamparelli in a Racing Car!! - YouTube[/ame]

Watching the poor quality clip I am guessing he is traveling faster than 15 km/h. Maybe even faster than 20 km/h.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

AWD/FWD lets you do things that seem crazy to RWD people.

I've heard people say Plato cannot drive well. Idiots.

[xwd]

Yeah some people just have a knack and feel for a car that others don't. Sadly I'm not one of those people who can almost instantly recognize a car's nature and feedback, it takes me some time.

I look at some of the autocross folks like Bryan Heitkotter, who won GTA a few years ago and has gone on to set poles, win races, etc. He can basically jump in almost any car at an autocross and beat very good people, even national champions, in their own cars in a matter of a couple of runs. The Solo driver of the year last year Tom O'Gorman, is 22 years old and is the same way whether it's high HP cars or low HP cars.

Peter Cunningham used to autocross with us in Milwaukee and he was the same way. He beat a soon to be national champ in his own car at an event within 2 runs having never driven the car before. Sometimes it's talent and other times experience.