Wear on outside of tires - suggest suspension upgrades?

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Vracer111

OP... one suggestion would be using your gearbox more. Is there a particular reason you really didn't shift at all after getting on track, going into slower turns with the engine in the absolute worst part of the torque dip? Being in the correct rpm range makes a difference in how the car sets the chassis to turn in. The car won't turn as well when bogged down verses when you are in the power band and able to control the yaw much better. You need weight transfer to better control turn in...whether under braking or acceleration - being in the torque dip range is not good for weight transfer.

No offense to either you, or the OP, but I 100% disagree here. If someone can't hit the turn in, apex and exit 100% of the time, as well as rolling on the throttle correctly, then downshifting is the last thing they need to be worrying about. At 60-70% of the limit that's really not a factor either.

Plus, you can't tell from the video, but most of the corners where you might drop to 2nd end up forcing you to shift at really bad places (either short shifting, shifting mid corner or riding the rev limiter until it's straightened out).

That track in these cars are perfectly happy to blast around in third all day long.

Same track, me driving. Laps were picked so I could look at where downshifting helped and where it didn't.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvIRxuxcLe8"]ATTS Lapping - May 24th 2014 - YouTube[/ame]

Originally Posted by 1Cor10:23

I'd attribute it just to inexperience, wasn't comfortable slamming I the brakes. ABS was kicking pretty hard during the day, I'm still on stock brakes and lines. Will look to upgrade these before I heard out again. Thanks for your comment!

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Upgrading pads/lines/fluid won't stop ABS, if anything it'll make it easier to trigger ABS than on stock pads.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about modifying anything else just yet, just get more seat time. Add more camber if you want, but I wouldn't let that hold you back or get into your head too much. IMO, you need to work on being smooth with inputs and hitting reference points more than more mods.

If you're going off and having TC/VSC kick in at less than 100% speeds then the best "upgrade" is more practice. My video is with VSC in sport mode, and it didn't intervene at all. There's still LOTS of time left on the table in my laps, but that wasn't my goal for the day.

I totally agree that playing around with VSC totally off is crucial for developing driving skills, but I would do that in a lower speed environment first. A driving school or autox is a much better setting than an open track (even a slower track like the DDT) for a beginner.

Check out the OTA or BMW club (don't need a BMW) schools, they're a full weekend and include in class, skidpad and track sessions.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Vracer111

The HJC AR-10 he's wearing is an SA Snell rated helmet that has attachment points built in for HANS device; the logo on the back is specific only to the HJC automotive racing helmet line - hence HJC Motorsports moniker. Know your helmets...

Tire wear looks absolutely normal...barely scuffed in.

OP... one suggestion would be using your gearbox more. Is there a particular reason you really didn't shift at all after getting on track, going into slower turns with the engine in the absolute worst part of the torque dip? Being in the correct rpm range makes a difference in how the car sets the chassis to turn in. The car won't turn as well when bogged down verses when you are in the power band and able to control the yaw much better. You need weight transfer to better control turn in...whether under braking or acceleration - being in the torque dip range is not good for weight transfer.

right, apparently when I saw the passenger's helmet I didn't pay attention to his ..enough hijacking back to topic

[1Cor10:23]

@wparsons, I completely agree with you - my #1 concern is to get in more practice. I could tell the huge difference run between runs #1, 3, and 5 during the day so it's clear to me that more seat time will yield the greatest results at this point. Regarding camber - I don't see it as hindering my performance (as I have much to learn), it's more so to protect the tires - PSS isn't cheap on my budget and might consider doing more learning on my stocks until I get better. Thanks for taking the time to write all that - greatly appreciated!

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by 1Cor10:23

@wparsons, I completely agree with you - my #1 concern is to get in more practice. I could tell the huge difference run between runs #1, 3, and 5 during the day so it's clear to me that more seat time will yield the greatest results at this point. Regarding camber - I don't see it as hindering my performance (as I have much to learn), it's more so to protect the tires - PSS isn't cheap on my budget and might consider doing more learning on my stocks until I get better. Thanks for taking the time to write all that - greatly appreciated!

At track temps, the stock tires supposedly grip the same as MPSS. At street temps, the MPSS are leagues ahead. The MPSS are also cheaper when new.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by 1Cor10:23

@wparsons, I completely agree with you - my #1 concern is to get in more practice. I could tell the huge difference run between runs #1, 3, and 5 during the day so it's clear to me that more seat time will yield the greatest results at this point. Regarding camber - I don't see it as hindering my performance (as I have much to learn), it's more so to protect the tires - PSS isn't cheap on my budget and might consider doing more learning on my stocks until I get better. Thanks for taking the time to write all that - greatly appreciated!

I wouldn't worry too much about the wear, even if you're wearing the outer edges more on the track, you'll be wearing them less on the street so it'll even out unless you spend A LOT of time on the track.

Once you go beyond ~2* you'll start seeing more wear street driving, so it's all a balance.

What school was this with? It seems odd that even with putting two wheels off the instructor wasn't really saying a whole lot. Did the instructor show you the line with them driving before you got behind the wheel?

[1Cor10:23]

Originally Posted by wparsons

I wouldn't worry too much about the wear, even if you're wearing the outer edges more on the track, you'll be wearing them less on the street so it'll even out unless you spend A LOT of time on the track.

Once you go beyond ~2* you'll start seeing more wear street driving, so it's all a balance.

What school was this with? It seems odd that even with putting two wheels off the instructor wasn't really saying a whole lot. Did the instructor show you the line with them driving before you got behind the wheel?

Was with Hanson, instruction was pretty good - had a chance to ride with the instructor as well mid-day. I would have liked to have a chance to learn the line in car with an instructor before heading out myself but it was new to even most of the instructors it seemed. To his defense, this was later on in the day - he was much more instructive earlier on and knew that was a corner that I struggled with (turn 3, always coming in too hot on first lap). Let's just say my exhaust was loud and he wasn't exactly yelling into my ear.

[wparsons]

From the schools I have done, if you're making big enough mistakes to go off (even two wheels off), you're forced to slow back down and prove you know the line and reference points at ~60% speed again before you're allowed to run faster again.

Until you can nail the turn in, apex and exit at 60% it is extremely counter productive to go any faster. Once you have it nailed at slower speeds, progressively add speed but make sure you're still nailing all the reference points.

[King Tut]

I don't even see any wear on those tires. I can show you what wear on the outside of a tire looks like if you want, haha.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Interesting point on the triangles. I noticed the other day that the triangles on my front tires are almost worn out, and I've got some chunking on the outer tread blocks.

I think I need to put some camber bolts on my car before my next track day and probably inflate my tires higher as well.

Yep. Generally tire pressure is used to determine how much of the sidewall you are using while camber will correct the wear pattern across the tire.

[1Cor10:23]

Originally Posted by wparsons

From the schools I have done, if you're making big enough mistakes to go off (even two wheels off), you're forced to slow back down and prove you know the line and reference points at ~60% speed again before you're allowed to run faster again.

Until you can nail the turn in, apex and exit at 60% it is extremely counter productive to go any faster. Once you have it nailed at slower speeds, progressively add speed but make sure you're still nailing all the reference points.

That's good to know for the future. Tough this time as I have nothing to compare the experience to. Got flagged first session for not letting people pass fast enough (think it was an error in judgment by one of the marshals as we were letting cars pass in droves) - that kinda lit a fire on my ass to go a bit faster and it definitely pushed me to keep a faster pace than I would like to practice re: reference points.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by 1Cor10:23

That's good to know for the future. Tough this time as I have nothing to compare the experience to. Got flagged first session for not letting people pass fast enough (think it was an error in judgment by one of the marshals as we were letting cars pass in droves) - that kinda lit a fire on my ass to go a bit faster and it definitely pushed me to keep a faster pace than I would like to practice re: reference points.

Don't let something like that light a fire under your ass man. You will get the red mist and bad things will happen. Drive your pace and follow the passing rules. Make sure you feel comfortable and sneak up on improvements. Don't go out there and drive other people's line or get upset when you are giving point byes. Speed will come with time.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by King Tut

Yep. Generally tire pressure is used to determine how much of the sidewall you are using while camber will correct the wear pattern across the tire.

Got it, thanks for the info. After adding whiteline camber bolts, ~3 psi tire pressure, and doing a tire rotation, I'm hoping to see better wear on the front tires.

The rears are wearing about the same rate as the fronts, but with much more even wear pattern across the tread. Thank you multilink rear suspension?

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by King Tut

Don't let something like that light a fire under your ass man. You will get the red mist and bad things will happen. Drive your pace and follow the passing rules. Make sure you feel comfortable and sneak up on improvements. Don't go out there and drive other people's line or get upset when you are giving point byes. Speed will come with time.

This! The worst thing you can do while learning is try to chase someone down. Adrenaline will take over and you'll degrade quickly.

Honestly, if someone at a school/HDPE is getting pissed that you weren't giving them a pass fast enough they need to give their head a shake. Any driver can always take a drive through pit stop to clear out some space between them and other cars.

That said, if you're REALLY holding up a train of cars you should take a drive through pit stop to let them all past at once. I don't think that was the case with you though.

To the OP... the one thing your instructor said that is really good advice is that you NEED to be right up behind someone or they won't point you past. If you're giving them too much space they won't see you, so there's a chance that the people behind you were hanging out too far behind when coming up to passing zones for you to notice.

[Vracer111]

Originally Posted by wparsons

No offense to either you, or the OP, but I 100% disagree here. If someone can't hit the turn in, apex and exit 100% of the time, as well as rolling on the throttle correctly, then downshifting is the last thing they need to be worrying about. At 60-70% of the limit that's really not a factor either.

Plus, you can't tell from the video, but most of the corners where you might drop to 2nd end up forcing you to shift at really bad places (either short shifting, shifting mid corner or riding the rev limiter until it's straightened out).

That track in these cars are perfectly happy to blast around in third all day long.

Same track, me driving. Laps were picked so I could look at where downshifting helped and where it didn't.

Upgrading pads/lines/fluid won't stop ABS, if anything it'll make it easier to trigger ABS than on stock pads.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about modifying anything else just yet, just get more seat time. Add more camber if you want, but I wouldn't let that hold you back or get into your head too much. IMO, you need to work on being smooth with inputs and hitting reference points more than more mods.

If you're going off and having TC/VSC kick in at less than 100% speeds then the best "upgrade" is more practice. My video is with VSC in sport mode, and it didn't intervene at all. There's still LOTS of time left on the table in my laps, but that wasn't my goal for the day.

I totally agree that playing around with VSC totally off is crucial for developing driving skills, but I would do that in a lower speed environment first. A driving school or autox is a much better setting than an open track (even a slower track like the DDT) for a beginner.

Check out the OTA or BMW club (don't need a BMW) schools, they're a full weekend and include in class, skidpad and track sessions.

No offense taken. He's a beginner at a much slower pace though, and being at a slower pace, now would be the best time to learn how to brake and set the car on corner entrance and feed in throttle/out steering from apex on, which would better be done in second based on his video (1Cor10:23, autocross would be a good thing to experience to get a feel for low speed handling at the limit in a really safe environment. Autocross is a great primer/learning tool for maximizing low speed handling and proper corrective low-almost mid speed actions on track.) By the time he's through the turns he would be at the right point on track to shift to third. But once he gets faster I'd agree, third gear for most all the track. Third gear is not the best gear to learn to balance the car at, much higher speeds and less margin of error for balancing corrections [car response not as sensitive or immediate if you get it wrong.] Balance the car in third you are talking 50-60+mph cornering speeds in the meat of the power band...balancing the car in second it easily done at 30-40mph.

Being in too low an rpm range will not give you the full feel of balancing/rotating the car, if you are going 30mph-40mph 2nd gear is what you want not 3rd: you will get a much better sensation and feedback from the chassis and have more fun as well. The FRS is also ridiculously stable under braking/downshift with its EBF system, it will let you do stupid stuff and get away with it (wish the EBF could be deactivated with the traction/stability system "off"). The 86 a great car for someone to get into tracking with because it's stable enough yet perfectly compliant to the drivers demands and inputs, most compliant at 5krpm+ to throttle and steering inputs. With the speeds you are lapping at, 3rd gear makes absolutely perfect sense and is most proper, being you are seldom in the torque dip range and are able to transfer weight well to balance the car as needed for turn in and track out.