Open Source Electric Supercharger

[AN]

Originally Posted by Tenthousanddays

Through email. They don't normally sell directly to individuals, they have distributors for that. I have a small amount of rapport, having worked with them back in college - so if someone is interested I can get whatever is desired.

Really interested in this ... is there any additional literature on this ... do the prices include any kind of electrics ? even the low boost version ...what will be the power source ?

At the minimum I would want to know what kind of volts / amps does that motor need and how to control its speed ?

[rusty959]

Originally Posted by AN

Really interested in this ... is there any additional literature on this ... do the prices include any kind of electrics ? even the low boost version ...what will be the power source ?

At the minimum I would want to know what kind of volts / amps does that motor need and how to control its speed ?

The images show what appears to be 3 high current inputs. This implies its a brushless motor. I don't see anything regarding if they have a controller or not available. But they do say 12-48 VDC, and I'm assuming you would need to be up close to that 48 VDC to get the 10kw they talk about.

[Tenthousanddays]

Originally Posted by AN

Really interested in this ... is there any additional literature on this ... do the prices include any kind of electrics ? even the low boost version ...what will be the power source ?

At the minimum I would want to know what kind of volts / amps does that motor need and how to control its speed ?

The lower pressure/lower cost model which utilizes their new 5" in diameter LM5 motor is only 24vDC, and is capable of pushing out close to 9PSI. You can run it straight from a battery (24v);, and just have an on/off switch like the Phantom does - this would be the easiest way to implement it.

Where I (Current) is equal to P/V (Power divided by Voltage): I=7kW/24v => I=291.6A. The LM5 Motor is capable of 7kw of power (unfortunately I don't know if this is at 24 or 36v). So if you want 7kw of power from 24v, you'll need close to 300 amps of continuous power. Someone correct me if I'm wrong - I went to school to be an electrical engineer, but ended up working in IT Infrastructure.

This is the info I got from him:

"Our low voltage brushless motors, including the one upon which the direct drive supercharger is based, have integrated commutation electronics that allow them to operate directly from a battery, in this case 24V. However, speed control requires the application of variable DC voltage to the input terminals, which means a buck regulator or DC motor controller with an external inductor for filtering high frequency PWM will be needed."

Originally Posted by rusty959

The images show what appears to be 3 high current inputs. This implies its a brushless motor. I don't see anything regarding if they have a controller or not available. But they do say 12-48 VDC, and I'm assuming you would need to be up close to that 48 VDC to get the 10kw they talk about.

The one pictured is the higher cost - higher pressure model, which has a built in gearbox to achieve the 15 PSI mentioned. It's based off of their larger motor, and a Borg Warner scroll. In order to achieve 15PSI I imagine that you would need 48V. They do not manufacture controllers, thus they do not offer one.

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by Tenthousanddays

The lower pressure/lower cost model which utilizes their new 5" in diameter LM5 motor is only 24vDC, and is capable of pushing out close to 9PSI. You can run it straight from a battery (24v);, and just have an on/off switch like the Phantom does - this would be the easiest way to implement it.

Where I (Current) is equal to P/V (Power divided by Voltage): I=7kW/24v => I=291.6A. The LM5 Motor is capable of 7kw of power (unfortunately I don't know if this is at 24 or 36v). So if you want 7kw of power from 24v, you'll need close to 300 amps of continuous power. Someone correct me if I'm wrong - I went to school to be an electrical engineer, but ended up working in IT Infrastructure.

This is the info I got from him:

"Our low voltage brushless motors, including the one upon which the direct drive supercharger is based, have integrated commutation electronics that allow them to operate directly from a battery, in this case 24V. However, speed control requires the application of variable DC voltage to the input terminals, which means a buck regulator or DC motor controller with an external inductor for filtering high frequency PWM will be needed."



The one pictured is the higher cost - higher pressure model, which has a built in gearbox to achieve the 15 PSI mentioned. It's based off of their larger motor, and a Borg Warner scroll. In order to achieve 15PSI I imagine that you would need 48V. They do not manufacture controllers, thus they do not offer one.

300 amps! That a heck of a lot of current. It's going to take some big batteries/capacitors to handle that kind of draw. I'll be happy if I get 3 psi at redline. One thing I want to avoid is a big heavy complicated power system.

[Tenthousanddays]

Originally Posted by neutron256

300 amps! That a heck of a lot of current. It's going to take some big batteries/capacitors to handle that kind of draw. I'll be happy if I get 3 psi at redline. One thing I want to avoid is a big heavy complicated power system.

Yeah that seems like a hell of a lot, but that could be for peak power (redline) only if you wished? This is where PWM/Speed controller would come in handy (along with your whole Unichip setup).

Is that the right calculation anyway?

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by Tenthousanddays

Yeah that seems like a hell of a lot, but that could be for peak power (redline) only if you wished? This is where PWM/Speed controller would come in handy (along with your whole Unichip setup).

Is that the right calculation anyway?

Yep, my math comes out the same. If you figure a peak charge of 28V it's only 250 Amps. But that's still a ton of current.

A 36V (42V Peak) it drops to 166 amps which is a lot more reasonable.

[AN]

Originally Posted by Tenthousanddays

I went to school to be an electrical engineer, but ended up working in IT Infrastructure.

Same here ... on both counts ... actually IT (BI) vs Infrastructure though

Anyhow ... the information I am looking for is ... that their language indicates that they have / will have multiple versions of each model ( direct drive / gear drive ) motor-compressor combos. I would want to know what combinations of Peak V, Peak I and Total Power will they offer. And what boost + CFMs will each of these generate.

Also, I am not sure I would want to run 9psi in an on/off fashion. It works for Phantom because the total boost is more like 4~4.5 psi. Once scenario where I would be OK with on/off boost will be where the wheel is big and heavy and builds boost gradually.

Anyhow, anxiously waiting for more details to come out and seeing actual specs. Critical piece then would be to set-up power delivery / recharge for this monster.

[AN]

@neutron256 , a few questions for ya :

Will you hook up the MinnKota charger to charge all three batteries (starter + 2x for the 24v pack) or the starter battery will charge as OEM and MinnKota will draw power from the alternator in parallel to the starter battery ?

Also, I think the alternator on the FT86 is 120A (100A for my Miata NC2). The Minnkota charges @ 10A / bank. Do you think this will be slower than what Phantom is doing ? Again I do not have a quantitative understanding of how quick a 10A charge is for a Pb-Acid battery ?

If I want to have a 36V setup, will I be able to charge the dump-packs 3 batteries with the MinnKota and leave the OEM battery untouched. Will the MinnKota/or the OEM electrics have an issue being in parallel to each other.

My final question is ... are there any special considerations for having the BoostCaps in parallel to the 3 AGM Batteries ? Caps appear as short circuits in initial charging ... and today's smart chargers (e.g. MinnKota) might have an issue with that. I will try to draw up what I have in mind for my dump-pack and I will look for your ( and others) critique on it.

BTW .. really waiting for new pics from you.

[Tenthousanddays]

Originally Posted by neutron256

Yep, my math comes out the same. If you figure a peak charge of 28V it's only 250 Amps. But that's still a ton of current.

A 36V (42V Peak) it drops to 166 amps which is a lot more reasonable.

I don't think a 36v system is out of the question. It would certainly be easier to do the "standard" 3 battery setup and only need ~194A. I'm not sure where the 7kW peak comes from... and granted that's bench tested. I do believe his motors will run off of anything between 12 and 36v, so you could probably give it whatever amount of power you want. You just wont see peak power.

Originally Posted by AN

Same here ... on both counts ... actually IT (BI) vs Infrastructure though

Anyhow ... the information I am looking for is ... that their language indicates that they have / will have multiple versions of each model ( direct drive / gear drive ) motor-compressor combos. I would want to know what combinations of Peak V, Peak I and Total Power will they offer. And what boost + CFMs will each of these generate.

Also, I am not sure I would want to run 9psi in an on/off fashion. It works for Phantom because the total boost is more like 4~4.5 psi. Once scenario where I would be OK with on/off boost will be where the wheel is big and heavy and builds boost gradually.

Anyhow, anxiously waiting for more details to come out and seeing actual specs. Critical piece then would be to set-up power delivery / recharge for this monster.

I'd like to implement Neutrons solution of using an Electric Speed Controller and Unichip so you get more of a "natural" increase in power through the rev meter. 9PSI is absolute max, bench tested pressure. More realistically it will be around 7PSI or so. And who knows what it would look like actually tested on our vehicles. I don't have the money to buy one and do the testing - or else I'd already have one.

I don't know if I can really get all that info... I think he's already fed up with answering my "petty" questions. He's not really looking to sell a unit here and there, but moreover is selling his equipment to distributors in bulk.

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by AN

@neutron256 , a few questions for ya :

Will you hook up the MinnKota charger to charge all three batteries (starter + 2x for the 24v pack) or the starter battery will charge as OEM and MinnKota will draw power from the alternator in parallel to the starter battery ?

Also, I think the alternator on the FT86 is 120A (100A for my Miata NC2). The Minnkota charges @ 10A / bank. Do you think this will be slower than what Phantom is doing ? Again I do not have a quantitative understanding of how quick a 10A charge is for a Pb-Acid battery ?

If I want to have a 36V setup, will I be able to charge the dump-packs 3 batteries with the MinnKota and leave the OEM battery untouched. Will the MinnKota/or the OEM electrics have an issue being in parallel to each other.

My final question is ... are there any special considerations for having the BoostCaps in parallel to the 3 AGM Batteries ? Caps appear as short circuits in initial charging ... and today's smart chargers (e.g. MinnKota) might have an issue with that. I will try to draw up what I have in mind for my dump-pack and I will look for your ( and others) critique on it.

BTW .. really waiting for new pics from you.

MinnKota makes 12V, 24V, and 36V versions of their alternator charger. I picked up both 24V and 36V units to test. It connects in parallel with the start battery to the alternator, and then individually to the positive and negative terminals of each battery in the dump pack while allowing them the remain connected in series with each other.

Right now I'm working on building an all in one pack that will contains the starter battery along with two dump pack batteries in a nice clean drop in replacement for the stock starter battery. At a 20 amp rate I'm guessing my recharge rate will be similar the Phantom setup, but it's really hard to know until I test it. My system at peak output should be around 140 amp draw. That would mean a 7:1 charge/discharge if charging is disabled while in boost assuming a steady charge rate which of course never happens.

Right now capacitors aren't even really in my design. It's something I'll consider if/when I get the basic unit working. It's a good thought, and I don't know how the MinnKota would handle balancing the charge with caps in the mix. I think if you added 12V worth of caps in parallel with each battery rather then a 24v bank across the whole pack it would work. As long as you connect the caps the the batteries first before connecting the charger they should just balance their charge with the battery pack.

[rusty959]

Originally Posted by neutron256

MinnKota makes 12V, 24V, and 36V versions of their alternator charger. I picked up both 24V and 36V units to test. It connects in parallel with the start battery to the alternator, and then individually to the positive and negative terminals of each battery in the dump pack while allowing them the remain connected in series with each other.

Right now I'm working on building an all in one pack that will contains the starter battery along with two dump pack batteries in a nice clean drop in replacement for the stock starter battery. At a 20 amp rate I'm guessing my recharge rate will be similar the Phantom setup, but it's really hard to know until I test it. My system at peak output should be around 140 amp draw. That would mean a 7:1 charge/discharge if charging is disabled while in boost assuming a steady charge rate which of course never happens.

Right now capacitors aren't even really in my design. It's something I'll consider if/when I get the basic unit working. It's a good thought, and I don't know how the MinnKota would handle balancing the charge with caps in the mix. I think if you added 12V worth of caps in parallel with each battery rather then a 24v bank across the whole pack it would work. As long as you connect the caps the the batteries first before connecting the charger they should just balance their charge with the battery pack.

Before any high capacity capacitor is connected to a battery you would just charge it using a resistor. A large wireround resistor is typically used. (though people sometimes even use lightbulbs) Basically anything that will limit current flow without burning up.

Once your caps are charged and hooked up your charger shouldn't be able to notice they are there. Lead acid batteries are pretty dumb, you don't do peak detection or anything with them like you can with NiMH or NiCD.

As far as balancing them, splitting the caps up to match the batteries wouldn't be a bad idea, but you will still long term need a way to balance the caps inside each 12v string. You wouldn't need to fully separate the full cap setup, just a reasonably large wire between the battery terminals and points on the caps. I can draw a pic if it would be useful.

[rusty959]

On an unrelated note, it isn't that hard to run a large-gauge wire from the trunk to the engine compartment. I have a 1/0 gauge in mine at the moment, and you would never know it is there. That single run is rated over 300 amps. You can bump that up a bit and carry even more. We do it all the time in the car audio world.

[AN]

Originally Posted by rusty959

On an unrelated note, it isn't that hard to run a large-gauge wire from the trunk to the engine compartment. I have a 1/0 gauge in mine at the moment, and you would never know it is there. That single run is rated over 300 amps. You can bump that up a bit and carry even more. We do it all the time in the car audio world.

IMHO , I think it will be a good idea to keep the dump pack in the hood and move the starter battery to the trunk ...

[AN]

Originally Posted by rusty959

As far as balancing them, splitting the caps up to match the batteries wouldn't be a bad idea, but you will still long term need a way to balance the caps inside each 12v string. You wouldn't need to fully separate the full cap setup, just a reasonably large wire between the battery terminals and points on the caps. I can draw a pic if it would be useful.

I thought we need to make use of diodes to balance charge each 12v Capacitor pack to balance charrge each of the 6X 2.7v .

Could you please elaborate the wire design? Thanks ..