Losing control

[Sarlacc]

Originally Posted by Hot Lava

So many blame the stock tires for loss of control or simply deride their performance. The tires are good and I'm sure more than sufficient for the average vehicle. Put them on a car with excellent handling then all of a sudden they're dangerous? That's Counterintuitive.

I never said they were dangerous, and I don't think they are. I'd never blame the vehicle for any mistake I'd make while driving, and losing control is usually a driver mistake.
But, I've had wider tyres with more grip on previous cars for many years, so I bought new wheels with 225 PSS's and I like them better. It's a personal preference, nothing more.

[Harvey]

Rainy road this morning and I pressed a little hard coming out of a round about, the back slipped quite clearly (maybe 50cm) before TCS stopped it all! Thanks god... I guess wihout TCS/ESC I might have messed that up as I'm no topnotch pilot.

[Sarlacc]

Originally Posted by Harvey

Rainy road this morning and I pressed a little hard coming out of a round about, the back slipped quite clearly (maybe 50cm) before TCS stopped it all! Thanks god... I guess wihout TCS/ESC I might have messed that up as I'm no topnotch pilot.

I don't think you were in any danger. This is normal behaviour for the GT86 on stock wheels and tyres. The car encourages you to press hard, and it responds by flicking it's tail like a happy puppy.

The general advice for this situation on slippery surface (wet, snow, ice) in any vehicle with 4 or more wheels, regardless of FWD/AWD/RWD and any stabilizer electronics present or not, is:
1. Release the throttle and engage the clutch (if not automatic gearbox)
2. Steer through the situation. Point the front wheels in the direction your vehicle should go, do not over compensate if front wheels are slipping.
3. If the vehicle has ABS, brakes might help. If no ABS, braking in such situation may cause loss of steering.

There are more advanced and way more fun ways to handle such a situation, especially in nimble RWD cars such as ours, but those should be learned and trained for in a safe environment.

[Derickie]

Originally Posted by Hot Lava

So many blame the stock tires for loss of control or simply deride their performance. The tires are good and I'm sure more than sufficient for the average vehicle. Put them on a car with excellent handling then all of a sudden they're dangerous? That's Counterintuitive.

They are not dangerous and average vehicle (Prius) doesn't have the 86's performance either so you can't really compare tyre performance on two entirely different machines.

[Derickie]

Originally Posted by Sarlacc

I don't think you were in any danger. This is normal behaviour for the GT86 on stock wheels and tyres. The car encourages you to press hard, and it responds by flicking it's tail like a happy puppy.

The general advice for this situation on slippery surface (wet, snow, ice) in any vehicle with 4 or more wheels, regardless of FWD/AWD/RWD and any stabilizer electronics present or not, is:
1. Release the throttle and engage the clutch (if not automatic gearbox)
2. Steer through the situation. Point the front wheels in the direction your vehicle should go, do not over compensate if front wheels are slipping.
3. If the vehicle has ABS, brakes might help. If no ABS, braking in such situation may cause loss of steering.

There are more advanced and way more fun ways to handle such a situation, especially in nimble RWD cars such as ours, but those should be learned and trained for in a safe environment.

I just installed the spare tyre back in trunk and the car drives much better, more stable, more balanced and seem less willing to lose traction.

[Hot Lava]

Originally Posted by Hot Lava

So many blame the stock tires for loss of control or simply deride their performance. The tires are good and I'm sure more than sufficient for the average vehicle. Put them on a car with excellent handling then all of a sudden they're dangerous? That's Counterintuitive.

Originally Posted by Sarlacc

I never said they were dangerous, and I don't think they are. I'd never blame the vehicle for any mistake I'd make while driving, and losing control is usually a driver mistake.
But, I've had wider tyres with more grip on previous cars for many years, so I bought new wheels with 225 PSS's and I like them better. It's a personal preference, nothing more.

Never said you said they were dangerous.

Originally Posted by Derickie

They are not dangerous and average vehicle (Prius) doesn't have the 86's performance either so you can't really compare tyre performance on two entirely different machines.

In the context I clearly stated yes the hell I can.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by Sarlacc

I don't think you were in any danger. This is normal behaviour for the GT86 on stock wheels and tyres. The car encourages you to press hard, and it responds by flicking it's tail like a happy puppy.

The general advice for this situation on slippery surface (wet, snow, ice) in any vehicle with 4 or more wheels, regardless of FWD/AWD/RWD and any stabilizer electronics present or not, is:
1. Release the throttle and engage the clutch (if not automatic gearbox)
2. Steer through the situation. Point the front wheels in the direction your vehicle should go, do not over compensate if front wheels are slipping.
3. If the vehicle has ABS, brakes might help. If no ABS, braking in such situation may cause loss of steering.

There are more advanced and way more fun ways to handle such a situation, especially in nimble RWD cars such as ours, but those should be learned and trained for in a safe environment.

Southern californian here, so I've never driven in snow. Interesting, is there not enough traction in snow for significant weight shift? Why not leave it in gear? Is there no amount of throttle that will give the rear some stability in the snow?

At least on dry asphalt, lifting after you start oversteering is like the worst sin.

[HercMax]

If you're oversteering (tail losing grip and coming around) by applying too much throttle for the available grip then yes back off the throttle (not abruptly if possible) and steer into the direction you want to go but I would advise against pushing in the clutch. This will give a you no drive and you're coasting which is not so bad in a slow speed corner such as a roundabout but you're going to come to a stop because the next instinctive thing for most drivers is to brake. This might be the safest thing in most situations though. Putting it back into gear by releasing the clutch will cause the driven wheels to spin and upset the car even more.
The correct way to get out of slide and not stop in slow speed oversteer situations is back off throttle, turn into direction of slide (that is point to where the road is or where you're intending on going, keep throttle steady and gently apply power again and wait. Car should straighten out and you keep going to your original path as it gathers grip at the rear.
If you're oversteering because you lifted off the throttle (usually will only happen during higher speeds) then turn into slide and apply throttle.
As always drive with care and learn the car on its limits and learn how to read the available grip from the road conditions. The stock tyres are pretty lacking when the roads are wet but are by no means a crappy tyre. I won't go into the religious debate about whether or not you should keep TC and VSC on but knowing how to drive without will let you learn more about a car's dynamics and make you a better driver with skills you can apply to any car. The twins are the probably one of the best cars on the market to teach you that.

[HercMax]

Forgot to mention that as soon as you feel the car stop sliding out then slowly unwind the opposite lock on the steering wheel as you'll start to steer into the slide and possibly pendulum into sliding the car the opposite way and creating a tank slapper. That will depend how much throttle and steering input you used. Most starting out tend to wind on too much opposite lock. If judged well you should exit the corner pointing straight again with no fish tailing. Smooth inputs are always best obviously.

[TM]

Originally Posted by Derickie

This is the traffic we deal with everyday lol

With that much traffic, how are you even going fast enough to fish tail?

I've driven my BRZ in NYC and Toronto traffic. Grinding on first gear all day.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by Sarlacc

The general advice for this situation on slippery surface (wet, snow, ice) in any vehicle with 4 or more wheels, regardless of FWD/AWD/RWD and any stabilizer electronics present or not, is:
1. Release the throttle and engage the clutch (if not automatic gearbox)
.

You just gave advice to induce snap in oversteer.

Rephrase that to say: "Release the throttle very carefully - sudden lifting of throttle will induce snap in oversteer"

Which BTW is exactly one of the things the "nannies" does incorrectly in this car.
When the car detects wheel spin, it abruptly lifts the throttle and applies the appropriate brakes to straighten the car.

When this occurs in a very low traction situation, you can easily find yourself looking at where you just came from (pointing backwards).

[Harvey]

Well... all this tells me I've got to find a nice big parking on a rainy sunday to mess around on to get an idea of how this feels... in the meantime, I had a little small slide (just a little feel of rear "jumping") in 3rd coming out of a roundabout, less than first time.

[J_kennington]

Originally Posted by Harvey

Well... all this tells me I've got to find a nice big parking on a rainy sunday to mess around on to get an idea of how this feels... in the meantime, I had a little small slide (just a little feel of rear "jumping") in 3rd coming out of a roundabout, less than first time.

Are these gigantic round abouts? I can't imagine being in 3rd for a round about lol.

[Sarlacc]

Originally Posted by stugray

You just gave advice to induce snap in oversteer.

Rephrase that to say: "Release the throttle very carefully - sudden lifting of throttle will induce snap in oversteer"

Which BTW is exactly one of the things the "nannies" does incorrectly in this car.
When the car detects wheel spin, it abruptly lifts the throttle and applies the appropriate brakes to straighten the car.

When this occurs in a very low traction situation, you can easily find yourself looking at where you just came from (pointing backwards).

Well, that's what they teach at driving schools in Norway. Release throttle and press the clutch. What I didn't include was the word "simultaneously", but that should be obvious.

If you're in low gear I would agree that suddenly releasing throttle without stepping on the clutch will apply significant engine braking on the drive wheels and cause oversteer on a RWD car, or understeer on a FWD car. Therefore, clutch.