Handgun hiding spot in brz

[RFB]

Originally Posted by driftartist

I respect your reply fully. Though I have not read up on that i do still understand the importance of guns and safety. i should have clarified that when i call guns retarded i was actually referring to the vast majority of unintelligent people who irresponsibly handle them.

while there are many people who respect firearms and take all the necessary safety precautions. i feel based on observation that most people are not responsible and therefore result in accidental deaths and or premeditated murders. i salute the troops and i support the right to protect ones life and family but i dislike the lack of common sense among the population.

For the sake of clarity and logic I ask the following -

"THE VAST MAJORITY OF UNINTELLIGENT PEOPLE WHO IRRESPONSIBLY HANDLE THEM"

- so -
Do you also imply that the minority of unintelligent people handle them responsibly ?

" MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE AND THEREFORE RESULT IN ACCIDENTAL DEATHS OR PREMEDITATED MURDER "
"BASED ON OBSERVATION"

Have you observed accidental deaths or premeditated murder ?

In the vast majority of cases, citizens are severly examined trained and tested by the state prior to being issued a permit to carry.

Do your observations apply to them ?





CERBERUS

[skyloran]

Originally Posted by Snowblind

Don't hang out with criminals and this won't be a problem.

clean and clear enough.

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by DoomsdayJesus

I know I never considered one because there are better rounds out there than .380. For self defense, I consider .380 to be a non-starter. Even in it's most modern examples, it leaves a lot to be desired. Sig made a .380 because they continue to be popular and they could sell them as a premium option, not because they were the best option.
http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aast9mmv380a.htm

Yeah I didn't want to get into the whole ballistics this versus that debate, people can look at the choices, options and numbers and figure that out on their own. I was curious about the firearm, not the round. Btw, Sig actually made the 9mm after the .380 for this model, not the other way around so you can still choose. I have my own reasons for avoiding the 9mm as I have three too many of them as is and would love to get rid of all of them like the Marine Corps is trying to do. I always considered it something of a euro-trash round and only partook in it due to ubiquity at the time.

[SirBrass]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

Had a p238? Care to pm me why you don't anymore? I'm thinking of picking one up.

Because they made a 938 (9mm) of the same size (just about 1 mm longer in grip and 3mm longer in overall length... I measured with a micrometer I use for checking cartridge OAL when reloading). 380ACP was only useful when it was the biggest and best round one could get for a mouse gun (I'll take it ANY DAY over .22lr, .25ACP, or .32). When they started making mouse/pocket guns of the same size, width, accuracy, weight, and capacity as 380, the 380 should have died (it's more expensive than its more potent older brother anyway).

So I sold my 238 to my physician for $400 cash, and carry my 938 as my backup. My primary has always been of a more potent variety (either a beretta 9mm, s&w 357sig, or my Dan Wesson 1911 commander).

Edit: as far as shootability, the Sig P238 and P938 are fantastic. Unlike other mouse guns, they have full-sized tritium 3-dot iron sights (very fast to acquire in a SHTF situation, just like a normal pistol), and both have insignificant recoil (even as light as they are) b/c of their metal frames, as opposed to harsher, looser mouse guns with poly frames (like the LCP, which I'm told HURTS to even practice with in 380). The 938 and 238 are so comfortable I could shoot them all day without my hands getting tired, much like my PX4 compact or my Dan Wesson 1911 commander. Not so with guns which hurt to shoot (like the lcp).

The only thing to really watch out for on the P2/938 is the relatively heavy single action trigger. It's good that the triggers are heavy, as they're mouse guns. But if you don't practice, the small size and heavy trigger can easily cause a stressed shooter to yank the point of aim of the muzzle towards his non-dominant side by several degrees. So, good trigger control MUST be practiced, that is, practice regularly pulling the trigger (which isn't all THAT heavy, just heavy compared to a slick, 4-5lb, glass-rod-like worked-up 1911 trigger) straight to the rear.

[driftartist]

Originally Posted by RFB

For the sake of clarity and logic I ask the following -

"THE VAST MAJORITY OF UNINTELLIGENT PEOPLE WHO IRRESPONSIBLY HANDLE THEM"

- so -
Do you also imply that the minority of unintelligent people handle them responsibly ?

" MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE AND THEREFORE RESULT IN ACCIDENTAL DEATHS OR PREMEDITATED MURDER "
"BASED ON OBSERVATION"

Have you observed accidental deaths or premeditated murder ?

In the vast majority of cases, citizens are severly examined trained and tested by the state prior to being issued a permit to carry.

Do your observations apply to them ?




CERBERUS

ahh yes. the vast majority of gun owners are irresponsible. though there are many who are responsible.

observed in the news the paper. in my neighborhood yes i have.

just saying there are a lot of people out there who arent ready to handle the responsibility of a firearm.

not bashing firearm enthusiasts and im not bashing people opposed. just stating this is a car forum. lets talk cars. not how to be a cowboy and throw a holster on our "horses"

[Tainen]

Originally Posted by driftartist

ahh yes. the vast majority of gun owners are irresponsible. though there are many who are responsible.

observed in the news the paper. in my neighborhood yes i have.

just saying there are a lot of people out there who arent ready to handle the responsibility of a firearm.

not bashing firearm enthusiasts and im not bashing people opposed. just stating this is a car forum. lets talk cars. not how to be a cowboy and throw a holster on our "horses"

Clearly a very thought out and fact driven opinion, considering the millions upon millions of guns in the country, and the extremely low gun crime rates. Do some research before forming opinions.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by Tainen

Clearly a very thought out and fact driven opinion, considering the millions upon millions of guns in the country, and the extremely low gun crime rates. Do some research before forming opinions.

Compared to which country?

[SirBrass]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Compared to which country?

He should have said "violent crimes."

Because when guns are banned, the badguys still use them but also more often use even more brutal implements.

But, hey, knife murders are still better than gun wounds, right? As long as it's not a gun... /sarcasm

[Target70]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Compared to which country?

I don't think he is comparing anything to another country, but only the number of owners, vs the number of gun crimes in this one. He is commenting on the statement, that "the vast majority of gun owners are irresponsible". So let us estimate Vast majority to be atleast 65%. So if 65% of all the gun owners have shown themselves to be irresponsible with their firearms, we should have seen 1/4 of the US population being wounded or killed due to guns. The stats just don't bare that out. I do not know the actual stats, but I am pretty sure the violators among legal owners is below 1%

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

Because they made a 938 (9mm) of the same size (just about 1 mm longer in grip and 3mm longer in overall length... I measured with a micrometer I use for checking cartridge OAL when reloading). 380ACP was only useful when it was the biggest and best round one could get for a mouse gun (I'll take it ANY DAY over .22lr, .25ACP, or .32). When they started making mouse/pocket guns of the same size, width, accuracy, weight, and capacity as 380, the 380 should have died (it's more expensive than its more potent older brother anyway).

So I sold my 238 to my physician for $400 cash, and carry my 938 as my backup. My primary has always been of a more potent variety (either a beretta 9mm, s&w 357sig, or my Dan Wesson 1911 commander).

Edit: as far as shootability, the Sig P238 and P938 are fantastic. Unlike other mouse guns, they have full-sized tritium 3-dot iron sights (very fast to acquire in a SHTF situation, just like a normal pistol), and both have insignificant recoil (even as light as they are) b/c of their metal frames, as opposed to harsher, looser mouse guns with poly frames (like the LCP, which I'm told HURTS to even practice with in 380). The 938 and 238 are so comfortable I could shoot them all day without my hands getting tired, much like my PX4 compact or my Dan Wesson 1911 commander. Not so with guns which hurt to shoot (like the lcp).

The only thing to really watch out for on the P2/938 is the relatively heavy single action trigger. It's good that the triggers are heavy, as they're mouse guns. But if you don't practice, the small size and heavy trigger can easily cause a stressed shooter to yank the point of aim of the muzzle towards his non-dominant side by several degrees. So, good trigger control MUST be practiced, that is, practice regularly pulling the trigger (which isn't all THAT heavy, just heavy compared to a slick, 4-5lb, glass-rod-like worked-up 1911 trigger) straight to the rear.

Thanks. You don't find the 938 any snappier than the 238? I hated 9mm in the USP, 19 and 92fs. 938 seems to have a lighter trigger than 238 if the site isn't lying.

[Boxer486]

2/3rd's of all gun deaths in the US are from suicide. Now give it a rest and ask China and Russia how knives are working out for them.


For those who care to read: http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_stud...terproductive/


So holsters...

[SirBrass]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

Thanks. You don't find the 938 any snappier than the 238? I hated 9mm in the USP, 19 and 92fs. 938 seems to have a lighter trigger than 238 if the site isn't lying.

Surprisingly, no. It felt exactly the same as the 238. Maybe a smidge bit snappier, but nothing heavy or whip-like. Remember, the gun is small, so there wasn't a large recoiling mass to really rock my hands, and the leverage wasn't all that great either b/c of the size. Trigger felt much the same as on the 238. Neither have overly heavy triggers... just heavier (more like probably not as smooth) than on my Dan Wesson, which had a damn-near thin-glass-rod trigger break (and to which I responded "holy shit... sold!").

Now, I wouldn't launch +P or (heaven forbid) +P+ out of the 938... it's just not built to withstand that much extra pressure, but with 115gr hornady critical defense (which was designed for use in short barrel defensive firearms), it recoiled perfectly fine.

The 92fs sucked (I owned one) not b/c of recoil but because the grip was too damn fat for even my long fingers. So having a good, strong crush grip with that gun was not easy or pleasant (and that crush grip is what's key to the gun NOT recoiling hard in your hand... your arms and shoulders take the recoil force far more in stride than your wrists do, which is why you do NOT limp-wrist fire an auto loader).

The USP is also sized towards those whose hands suffer from giantism.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

2/3rd's of all gun deaths in the US are from suicide. Now give it a rest and ask China how knives are working out for them.

So accessibility plays a part.

[woode]

I would argue that the vast majority of gun owners are actually responsible, however (like most things) only the negative receives media attention.

I mean, when was the last time you saw a news headline talking about how a guy came home from work only to find that his handgun was still safely secured in his safe on his night stand where he left it? Boring..

Now, the moment some jackass shoots himself or somebody else.. or worse - doesn't securely store the firearm and a child or murderer gets their hands on it.. BAM! National news headlines.

I think the biggest problem is firearm storage to be honest. I am a pretty big gun nut, and my guns stay locked in a safe at all times unless I am out at the range. My bedside 1911 has a quick-access safe. So many people think just because a gun is stuffed in a closet that it is good to go. And for most, it will safely stay like that.. but that .01% where a child or a burglar finds it - bad. I would argue that is where the biggest problem lies. Runner up would be firearms education and safety. There are many who had nobody teach them and really should attend a class before they just go buying a gun.

As far as crime/gun statistics goes, well those are so skewed every which direction they are worthless. And, almost 100% of gun crimes are committed with a stolen or illegal gun.. many times by somebody who shouldn't even have a gun in the first place. Not often, if ever, you hear of a bad shoot committed by a concealed carry permit holder or other law abiding citizen.

[/rant]
(I really tried avoiding putting my $0.02 in this thread, but I just had to..)