Lets learn to drive manual! Save my clutch Season 1

[kberkel]

Originally Posted by chas3wba0

Oh this car definitely bucks in 2nd if I don't let off with extra care =__=

I guess I haven't experienced that yet

My SVT was real bad. Whenever I let my friends drive it, they always did that. I was like, "Just go to 3rd if it bucks, it takes a while to get used to"

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Jyn

I notice when I coast in 2nd in parking lots, the engine noise is unsteady and kinda bucking.

If you let the revs get down so low that the car starts bucking, you should have already engaged the clutch or downshifted.

Originally Posted by Jyn

Using some clutch keeps the car coasting steady, but it seems wrong in principle to be riding the clutch like that.

I'm thinking it may be helpful for you to see how your clutch is put together, so look at this exploded view out of the BRZ service manual. Then visualize what's happening inside the car when you drive it.



There are three main wear items there:

First, the clutch disc is the part you're actually engaging against the flywheel to make the car move.



When you smell "burning clutch" or cause your clutch to smoke, it's the material on that clutch disc that is actually overheating from the friction against the flywheel. It's made so that the material on the disc wears out over time, just like brake pads.



But even though it's made for some friction, you want to avoid unnecessary friction, because unnecessary friction makes it wear away faster. The way you avoid unnecessary friction is to avoid unnecessary clutch slip. Taking off from a stop is an example of slip that is necessary, because those parts have to slide against each other to smoothly apply power to the transmission shaft. Using your clutch to hold you in place on an incline is unnecessary clutch slip that will burn it up.

There are all sorts of in-betweens, and many of them will trigger argument here over whether you should or should not do them. But those of us who are in the fully-down-or-fully-up camp want to avoid clutch slip whenever possible. If the clutch is all the way in or all the way out, it isn't slipping (unless it's broken).

The second wear part is the pressure plate, what Subaru calls the "clutch cover assembly."



Inside that cover is a circle of flat springs that lever against the clutch disc to hold it steady in place against the flywheel. When you feel the spring tension of your pedal against your foot, you're actually feeling the spring tension of the pressure plate. Pressure plates generally fail when they fail. Unnecessarily holding the springs at half tension can wear them faster, but not by much.

The third wear part is the throwout bearing, which Subaru calls the "clutch release bearing assembly" in the pic.



This little bearing sits on the back of the pressure plate, which is turning when the car is in motion. When you engage the clutch, the release fork levers against the other side of the throwout bearing, which is stationary. This bearing isolates the spin of the engine from your foot so that you don't have to be spinning also to engage the clutch.



This bearing wears when unnecessary pressure is put on it. If you ride along with your foot resting on the clutch, it's putting pressure on the throwout bearing, and it will fail faster. If you always sit at red lights with the clutch fully engaged, the throwout bearing will wear faster. The throwout bearing is happiest when your foot is not on it.

So when you put all this together, you can see why some of us are more conservative with our clutch use. I personally avoid clutch slip whenever I can, with a bias toward fully engaging or fully releasing the clutch as much as possible. I rev match when downshifting. I avoid using the clutch to fudge the amount of torque I need, since this car has enough gears and enough RPM range that you should never have to do that. I also try to save my throwout bearing by keeping my foot completely off the clutch when not in use and slipping the car into neutral so I can fully release the clutch at red lights.

Why am I so conservative? Because I grew up with MGs, which require you to pull the engine to replace a clutch, and Triumphs, which require you to pull the transmission--out through the cockpit of the car, after having removed the entire interior and the dash supports. That was always a whole lot of bullshit better avoided. I don't know if clutch replacement in this car is any easier, but I want to put off finding out as long as possible. And I hope you can too.

[kuhlka]

Originally Posted by calidus

I think I just lugged my engine for the first time I ended up going <5mph and <1k rmps in 3rd. Can you guys please tell me the appropriate action to do in the following situation:

I was 45mph in the left hand lane in 5th gear, I down shifted into 4th and got into the turn lane. I was slowing down expecting to come to a complete stop, I pressed the clutch to the floor and shifted into neutral. Now I am going like 3mph in neutral and someone makes a right hand turn giving me an opportunity to make my turn. So shifted into 3rd and made my turn, bad idea it felt like I had ovals for wheels.

Should I have skipped 3rd and gone into 1st or 2nd? Should I have gone through my gears all the way down to 1st? Should I have double clutched?

If you're rolling always go into 2nd until you come to a complete stop. You can actually take off in 2nd, just don't rev the nuts off the engine or you'll slip the hell out of the clutch.

If anyone isn't planting their heels on the ground, kicking their clutch pedal to operate it, you're doing it wrong. Get your clutch pedal adjusted to the right height for your foot and bleed the line if necessary. The clutch in most cars doesn't need to be pressed all the way down to start to slip it. In my STI I only need to press it about an inch or so before it starts to slip, then I can click through the gears. Practicing 1st to second engagement at slow speeds in an empty lot helps with your feet a lot. Once you get good at that you can start clutchless shifting (casual driving only, not racing).

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by kuhlka

The clutch in most cars doesn't need to be pressed all the way down to start to slip it. In my STI I only need to press it about an inch or so before it starts to slip, then I can click through the gears.

Doing that puts unnecessary wear on the clutch disc and also puts unnecessary strain on the synchronizers since you're making the gearbox struggle against the torque of the engine. Tear your clutch and transmission up if you want, but that's pretty bad advice to be giving other people who might want them to last a while.

[Jyn]

@extrashaky thanks, that's exactly the format that I like to learn things - mechanically and logically. Guess the engineering never really dies after you graduate. I'll continue to monitor this thread for good tips and post up any questions I have in the future. Great stuff!!

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Jyn

@extrashaky thanks, that's exactly the format that I like to learn things - mechanically and logically. Guess the engineering never really dies after you graduate.

You might get a lot out of downloading the ISO of the 2013 factory service manual from here:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35279

You have to burn that ISO to CD (or mount the image as a CD on your computer) and run it in Internet Explorer. It's not the best FSM I've ever used, but there's a lot of good information in there on how this car is put together. I like to consult it before taking anything apart to make sure I don't break something.

[kuhlka]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Doing that puts unnecessary wear on the clutch disc and also puts unnecessary strain on the synchronizers since you're making the gearbox struggle against the torque of the engine. Tear your clutch and transmission up if you want, but that's pretty bad advice to be giving other people who might want them to last a while.

People above were talking about taking their foot off the floor to push in the clutch to the floor. Did you miss that? That involves a hell of a lot more slip than I'm talking about. Maybe I should have said CLUTCH ENGAGEMENT POINT instead of the dirty S word. Are you suggesting we should take our left foot off the floor like a noob and kick the pedal to the floor to shift?

All that slip/engagement point means is that you can click into gear without resistance. I'm not suggesting driving around constantly holding the clutch at the slip point. When it's time to shift, bump the pedal to that point and click into gear and release. It shouldn't take more than a second.

When I shift, there is no synchro whirr, just CLICK VROOOM CLICK VROOOM CLICK. Downshifting is BLIP CLICK BLIP CLICK etc. Considering I've hooned the shit out of my STI with over 90,000 miles and only had a single clutch replaced, I'd say I'm doing pretty damn well. The original owner didn't know what the hell they were doing and supposedly traded to an RX8 automatic after just 8,000 miles.

You really ought to fight the urge to condescend before asking follow-up questions. You're not the only one on this forum who does his/her own automotive work. Unless your clutch line has gobs of air in it, you don't need to floor it to fully disengage the clutch. If you DO, get off your ass and bleed it. Takes maybe 5 minutes.

[kberkel]

Originally Posted by kuhlka

good post

I don't think anyone was trying to be condescending. Just for a thread for learning to drive a manual, it's probably not the best advice to tell someone not to push the clutch in all the way

Sure with a sequential gear box, you don't even really need to pull the clutch at all, but I wouldn't advise someone to half clutch their car.

Your foot is already there, it probably takes more work to half clutch than to just push your foot to the floor . The STi has a much heavier clutch, you can push the BRZ clutch down effortless.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by kuhlka

People above were talking about taking their foot off the floor to push in the clutch to the floor. Did you miss that?

No, I didn't miss that, considering that I'm the one who started it. I even posted a pretty good clip of Hurley Haywood teaching someone to do it that way.

Originally Posted by kuhlka

That involves a hell of a lot more slip than I'm talking about.

LOL. No it doesn't.

Originally Posted by kuhlka

Are you suggesting we should take our left foot off the floor like a noob and kick the pedal to the floor to shift?

I'm suggesting that you avoid lazy bad habits by using your entire leg to shift the way professional drivers do it. Unless you think Hurley Haywood is a noob.

Originally Posted by kuhlka

Considering I've hooned the shit out of my STI with over 90,000 miles and only had a single clutch replaced, I'd say I'm doing pretty damn well.

When other drivers are routinely getting 150K or 200K out of the original clutches on their cars, I'm not sure you have anything to brag about.

Originally Posted by kuhlka

You really ought to fight the urge to condescend before asking follow-up questions.

Are you pot or kettle? I couldn't tell from your first post:

Originally Posted by kuhlka

If anyone isn't planting their heels on the ground, kicking their clutch pedal to operate it, you're doing it wrong.

Hurley will probably want to know that he's been doing it wrong all these years. Please send a condescending message to him to let him know.

[RacerX]

Just out of curiosity how tall are you guys and how far back do you have your driving position?

I'm 5'10 and I have my seat as far back as it will go. When I was first learning to drive stick I'd have the seat about half way back. As soon as I tried a laid-back driving position I instantly improved in smoothness. It will require ALOT more ankle movement to floor the clutch, but I find that anchoring my heel on the floor gave me so much more control and precision. I can still do all the tricks like heel toe just fine.

I think having the seat this far back is not the norm for someone of my height. The few times I've taking it in for service the seat was adjusted so far forward I could bearly get in it. Now when I move my seat forward I can't stand it.

So if you're struggling with clutch control give this a try. It took a day or three to get used to but it helped me out alot.

[chas3wba0]

Originally Posted by RacerX

Just out of curiosity how tall are you guys and how far back do you have your driving position?

I'm 5'10 and I have my seat as far back as it will go. When I was first learning to drive stick I'd have the seat about half way back. As soon as I tried a laid-back driving position I instantly improved in smoothness. It will require ALOT more ankle movement to floor the clutch, but I find that anchoring my heel on the floor gave me so much more control and precision. I can still do all the tricks like heel toe just fine.

I think having the seat this far back is not the norm for someone of my height. The few times I've taking it in for service the seat was adjusted so far forward I could bearly get in it. Now when I move my seat forward I can't stand it.

So if you're struggling with clutch control give this a try. It took a day or three to get used to but it helped me out alot.

Almost 6ft and my seat is about 90% of the way back, or an inch from the rear seat

[kuhlka]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

No, I didn't miss that, considering that I'm the one who started it. I even posted a pretty good clip of Hurley Haywood teaching someone to do it that way.

LOL. No it doesn't.

I'm suggesting that you avoid lazy bad habits by using your entire leg to shift the way professional drivers do it. Unless you think Hurley Haywood is a noob.

When other drivers are routinely getting 150K or 200K out of the original clutches on their cars, I'm not sure you have anything to brag about.

Are you pot or kettle? I couldn't tell from your first post:

Hurley will probably want to know that he's been doing it wrong all these years. Please send a condescending message to him to let him know.

Yeah, I think you do tend to miss stuff because I said the original owner of my STI roasted the clutch for 8,000 miles of the car's life. It still lasted me to 60k. Again you condescend. The ACT clutch and lightweight flywheel I replaced it with clamp better and have very little slip. SO, when I bump my foot to the disengagement point and click into gear it takes a split second. No synchro whir, no crunch, just a nice smooth click.

Btw, do you have YouTube video of your godlike shifting skills, or are you all talk about your miraculously slip-less clutch control? Good luck never slipping a clutch in LA rush hour traffic alternating between stopped and <5mph.

I couldn't give a crap less about Haywood. I seriously doubt he gets 200,000 miles out of his race cars. Unless he comes on here to talk about personal experience you're pointing to a Red Herring and just talking trash. Racers kick the floor because they're RACING and aren't worried about keeping the car perfectly smooth for passengers. If you treat your car like a race car on the street you aren't going to get 200,000 miles out of anything. Just ask ANY professional or amateur race team.

[subiestyle]

I also think we should be pushing the clutch pedal all the way to the floor in order to shift gears.

There are clutch pedal rubber stops with washers to raise that minimum level if you want.

[chrisl]

kuhlka: Am I misunderstanding you, or are you saying that you are not completely disengaging the clutch to shift? If so, you're definitely putting more strain on the synchros than necessary, and probably also wearing the clutch more than necessary as well (regardless of whether it feels like the synchros are "whirring" or not). In addition, you mentioned clutchless shifting, and that's a pretty bad idea on a synchronized box - it puts a lot of strain on the synchros.

Now, admittedly, you do not have to floor the clutch to shift - you just have to get it fully past the engagement point, so it is completely disengaged. From what you're saying though, it doesn't sound like this is what you're advocating.