Suggestion for brake pads and fluid

[PMok]

Originally Posted by SeanBlader

Just FYI, brake fluid is not an upgrade mod. It either works or it doesn't, there's no variation in capabilities between any hydraulic fluid, unless you happen to be overheating your brakes and boiling the fluid, which is very difficult to do. So, unless you have a very good reason to be removing and spending the trouble to reflush the entire system, I'd recommend leaving it alone.

It's been proven and confirmed by those who go to the track regularly, that the BRZ/FR-S brake system is prone to boiling the brake fluid pretty easily if you are pushing the car hard enough (on track). Will a beginner on their first track day be generally OK? Yes, probably. But even @wilfredwong (the OP) noted that he experienced brake fade by the end of his first track day, hence his starting this thread to ask about brake upgrades.

One driver mentioned he boiled his fluid by the first track day in this thread:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60598


And in this thread, CSG Mike was asked what the top 10 mods were suggested for a car going to the track... his answer in part included what he thought was essential mods, which included brake pads and fluid upgrades:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38926

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Budget friendly and what I consider essential mods in Italics.

Performance:
- Good dampers (cannot stress this enough)
- Camber Bolts and/or camber plates
- Alignment (only if you have alignment mods... otherwise you can only do toe)
- Good tires

Preventative mods/parts/maintenance
- Appropriate brake pads front and rear, not just front; prevents brake fade (you don't want your brakes to stop working)
- Appropriate brake fluid; prevents brake fluid from boiling or pedal getting mushy (same as above)
- Big brake kit (reduces operating cost SUBSTANTIALLY)
- Alignment (bad alignment will increase tire wear and decrease performance)
- Good fluids for oil, trans, diff (something that can take high temps)
- Oil cooler (keeps oil... cooler)
- Larger Radiator (stock radiator barely keeps engine cool)
- Tune (until they fix that transient ignition timing map thats destroying injector collars..)

After hearing/reading about these experiences from others who tracked the car before I did, my very first upgrades to my car were brake pads and fluid. I didn't want to take the "wait until the brakes fade on me and I can't stop, then consider spending money to fix it" approach on the track, I wanted to do it proactively and have it never be an issue. I did so, went to the track and had very good brake performance, and noted how much heat the brakes were generating from the track day so I consider it money well spent.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by wilfredwong

I'm thinking of upgrading my brake pad and brake fluid since I felt a little brake fade almost the end of my track day.
Does anyone have any suggestion?
My car is currently bone stock.

What kind of experience do you have, and what tracks do you run?

[wilfredwong]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

What kind of experience do you have, and what tracks do you run?

I tracked my car twice, both at Thunderhill.
btw I read your passage quoted by PMok.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by wilfredwong

I tracked my car twice, both at Thunderhill.
btw I read your passage quoted by PMok.

We conveniently have a group buy going, if you want to try some hybrid/autox type pads. Alternatively, if you're comfortable swapping pads yourself, use race pads, and swap on your stock pads or street pads for daily driving.

[SeanBlader]

Originally Posted by PMok

And in this thread, CSG Mike was asked what the top 10 mods were suggested for a car going to the track... his answer in part included what he thought was essential mods, which included brake pads and fluid upgrades...

For competition reasons I'd then consider a more major brake upgrade worthwhile including fluids, pads, lines, and if you have the budget, also calipers.

For all the rest of the drivers who will be commuting, autocrossing, and with an "occasional" track day... No. I'd consider all ten best upgrades for a first time track day to be the driver, no contest. In fact, I would suggest that if you are experiencing brake fade, that's something you should learn to deal with on the track, hopefully not something you're going to learn when descending out of the Rocky Mountains, which is again a driver upgrade first.

Here's my list for top 10 upgrades on the track:
Learn,

1. safety
2. braking (learn how and when you lose braking too)
3. turning-in
4. apexing
5. acceleration
6. exiting
7. cooldown
8. parking
9. courtesy
10. camaraderie

Then I'd say once you get those figured out, then start upgrading your car. The benefit is that all those in my list are directly applicable to being safe on our far more dangerous highways as well as being a better person.

After that, I'd do tire pressure, tires, (maybe brake fluid in here if it's failing), dampers, springs, brake pads, (again maybe fluid here).

I'd be more worried that people new to the track can't even correctly identify what happens when your brake fluid boils. Brake "fade" is typically caused by your pads overheating and vaporizing against the rotor causing them to basically do the same thing when your tires hydroplane, where as pedal sponginess is better attributed to fluid failure. The latter (boiling fluid) you identify really fast as the pedal going much closer to the floor, the prior (fade) you experience as a normally solid pedal, but a reduced effect of your normal pedal travel. And I say that hydraulic fluid doesn't usually fail because the boiling point of it increases when it's under pressure, this is why your radiator cap is pressurized, so literally the act of pressing on the pedal improves the performance of your brake fluid.

Still figuring out what's actually happening and learning how to deal with it is a better "mod" than pre-emptively replacing your brake fluid.

[PMok]

Originally Posted by SeanBlader

I'd be more worried that people new to the track can't even correctly identify what happens when your brake fluid boils. Brake "fade" is typically caused by your pads overheating and vaporizing against the rotor causing them to basically do the same thing when your tires hydroplane, where as pedal sponginess is better attributed to fluid failure. The latter (boiling fluid) you identify really fast as the pedal going much closer to the floor, the prior (fade) you experience as a normally solid pedal, but a reduced effect of your normal pedal travel. And I say that hydraulic fluid doesn't usually fail because the boiling point of it increases when it's under pressure, this is why your radiator cap is pressurized, so literally the act of pressing on the pedal improves the performance of your brake fluid.

Still figuring out what's actually happening and learning how to deal with it is a better "mod" than pre-emptively replacing your brake fluid.

I get what you're saying. Driver improvement is always the best and most inexpensive upgrade. But others more experienced than I have recommended more or less that the car stock is great for the track, except for the weaknesses in the brake pads and fluid. And they generally recommended that those are the first, and possibly the only things you need to upgrade before taking the car on track. If there is a known safety issue and a relatively inexpensive fix is available, why not do it proactively? And eliminate that issue from ever coming up. Otherwise you're just deferring something that you will realize that you need by the second or third track day.


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[Sypher]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

We conveniently have a group buy going, if you want to try some hybrid/autox type pads. Alternatively, if you're comfortable swapping pads yourself, use race pads, and swap on your stock pads or street pads for daily driving.

hey i plan to do at least few autox events this year and maybe a track event if money permits. I also DD my car. Do you think the hybrid/autox pads are worth the money/the right upgrade? i'm still running stock tires and probably will be until next year some time. thanks

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by SeanBlader

For competition reasons I'd then consider a more major brake upgrade worthwhile including fluids, pads, lines, and if you have the budget, also calipers.

For all the rest of the drivers who will be commuting, autocrossing, and with an "occasional" track day... No. I'd consider all ten best upgrades for a first time track day to be the driver, no contest. In fact, I would suggest that if you are experiencing brake fade, that's something you should learn to deal with on the track, hopefully not something you're going to learn when descending out of the Rocky Mountains, which is again a driver upgrade first.

Here's my list for top 10 upgrades on the track:
Learn,

1. safety
2. braking (learn how and when you lose braking too)
3. turning-in
4. apexing
5. acceleration
6. exiting
7. cooldown
8. parking
9. courtesy
10. camaraderie

Then I'd say once you get those figured out, then start upgrading your car. The benefit is that all those in my list are directly applicable to being safe on our far more dangerous highways as well as being a better person.

After that, I'd do tire pressure, tires, (maybe brake fluid in here if it's failing), dampers, springs, brake pads, (again maybe fluid here).

I'd be more worried that people new to the track can't even correctly identify what happens when your brake fluid boils. Brake "fade" is typically caused by your pads overheating and vaporizing against the rotor causing them to basically do the same thing when your tires hydroplane, where as pedal sponginess is better attributed to fluid failure. The latter (boiling fluid) you identify really fast as the pedal going much closer to the floor, the prior (fade) you experience as a normally solid pedal, but a reduced effect of your normal pedal travel. And I say that hydraulic fluid doesn't usually fail because the boiling point of it increases when it's under pressure, this is why your radiator cap is pressurized, so literally the act of pressing on the pedal improves the performance of your brake fluid.

Still figuring out what's actually happening and learning how to deal with it is a better "mod" than pre-emptively replacing your brake fluid.

I wholeheartedly disagree with that. You don't want to experience brake fade entering Turn 2 at Laguna Seca at 115+. You "deal with it" by going straight, into a gravel trap, and getting stuck, losing an expensive session AND having pads that are glazed and/or fluid that is boiled.

Brake pads and fluids are something that should be done for everyone except the absolute novice. Even then, it's better to be prepareed.

Do you have airbags in your car? Do you plan on using them?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Sypher

hey i plan to do at least few autox events this year and maybe a track event if money permits. I also DD my car. Do you think the hybrid/autox pads are worth the money/the right upgrade? i'm still running stock tires and probably will be until next year some time. thanks

If you're comfortable swapping pads on your own, then I'd recommend a race pad for the track days/autox days only. Otherwise, a hybrid pad is a good compromise.

Remember, it's a compromise. It's not as good as a race pad, and won't have the bite or heat capacity, but it'll be significantly better than a street pad. Likewise, it will dust more and possibly make noise compared to a street pad, but it does have significantly higher capabilities.

[Sypher]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

If you're comfortable swapping pads on your own, then I'd recommend a race pad for the track days/autox days only. Otherwise, a hybrid pad is a good compromise.

Remember, it's a compromise. It's not as good as a race pad, and won't have the bite or heat capacity, but it'll be significantly better than a street pad. Likewise, it will dust more and possibly make noise compared to a street pad, but it does have significantly higher capabilities.

cool. thanks for the info. I really appreciate it.

my problem isnt so much being comfortable with swapping the pads but more of me being too lazy lol.

[SeanBlader]

For competitive reasons be proactive, definitely. Those guys rebuild engines annually regardless of what they think the wear and tear was. Wrenching on the car is another part of the enjoyment of their cars. I knew a guy who ran Solo 1 on his Mk1 and would rebuild when he had less than 1000 miles on the engine. That was his off season. Realistically however no one is being competitive on the road course in this car, at least not without a team of professionals behind them.

For an open track day, take your first time out unmodded, regardless of what anyone else says, the car may be far better than you are. A typical day goes like this: the first half of the day you will be learning the track. The 3rd quarter of the day will be you getting used to the car. And the last quarter of the day you'll be too tired to drive right and if you're not careful, you'll have an off course excursion.

The reasons I suggest not doing anything with your brake fluid are 1.) A lot of drivers in these cars will be on tight budgets and will try to do things themselves, and brake fluid is not something to be messed with except by professional shop. 2.) It's likely that more experienced drivers are a lot rougher on their brakes than most of us here, and that means that a first timer on the track, or even an intermediate driver may have no issues with stock brakes.

If you aren't absolutely sure you know what you're doing, then best case a self attempted brake fluid change is a tow truck to the shop fix. Worst case your car rolls into the street. Maybe it's only property damage, maybe someone dies. Either way, that's not a risk I would recommend in writing to anyone.

[SeanBlader]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I wholeheartedly disagree with that. You don't want to experience brake fade entering Turn 2 at Laguna Seca at 115+. You "deal with it" by going straight, into a gravel trap, and getting stuck, losing an expensive session AND having pads that are glazed and/or fluid that is boiled.

Says the guy with a garage, a team, the professional expertise, and now the potential liability of someone trying to change their own brake fluid at home.

I'd much rather end up in the gravel trap at Laguna Seca, than in court over involuntary manslaughter charges. You think I'm kidding. I saw a kid accidentally release the automatic gear shifter of his parents car at home out of park, let the car roll down the driveway, and run over their little brother who was like 3 years old. Sure the parents are to blame for not watching their kids playing around the car, but it's not out of the question when messing with your brakes for a 2700 lb car to get out of control. Don't kill your little brother, get rid of cable.

Okay well I didn't see it, I came out to the parents screaming, and a story about what happened before the EMT's showed up.

[finch1750]

So because you saw one incident that nullifies the probably hundreds of thousands of brake jobs done (not to mention exhaust install, tire rotation, oil changes, and a laundry list of other work) in peoples driveways without someone getting hurt? You say he hit the car out of park? Was he doing a brake job? Was he working on the car at all? How is it relevant to whats being discussed? I am all for open debate, but for such a strong feeling please provide more context to how this is relevant.

You should know what you are doing when working on a car. How to safetly jack and support, to use chalks, etc. If not thats what shops are for or call a buddy to come help and learn. Mike did say if he was comfortable with doing it himself, who are we to tell him his comfort level. If he is unsure peopke are haven proven they are more than willing to help in any way they can.

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[SeanBlader]

Originally Posted by finch1750

So because you saw one incident that nullifies the probably hundreds of thousands of brake jobs done (not to mention exhaust install, tire rotation, oil changes, and a laundry list of other work) in peoples driveways without someone getting hurt?

It is relevant because any car without a properly set up exhaust, intake, injection or oil system, is merely a nuisance, a polluter, or life limited, but a car without a properly set up brake system can be a lethal weapon. A car with factory brakes will get you to the track, a car where you failed to bleed them properly may not get you to the corner.

All of the above being said, my MR2 has had a caliper rebuild, brake lines replacement, new master cylinder, Porterfield R/S4 pads, and after all that I put in ATE Super Blue brake fluid. Now I have a lighter car, carry more speed into and around the corners than the twins, but having driven on 100+ degree days I never had fade or sponginess even before those upgrades. Really, none of it made much difference for the cost except the pads. Your mileage may vary based on your driving.

I still recommend having professionals work on your brake fluid. I feel to recommend otherwise is grossly negligent. Should you decide to ignore my suggestions and have success, then more power to you, hope it goes well. If it goes wrong, and given the prosecution happy nature of the world, well you likely have plausible reasoning to file suit against those recommending otherwise in this thread, as well as the forum owners themselves. More obscure lawsuits have succeeded in the US, and that's a little more invested than I want to be in someone's "brake job".