The FRS's Potential?

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I don't think it would touch a stock C6 Z06, unless the FR-S is pretty well track-only prepped vs. totally stock Z06.

7 lb/hp (slightly inferior power/weight) with 54/46 weight distribution (probably worse, as the power-adder is going to add weight up front) 350rwhp FR-S is going to have more trouble getting power down than 6.7 lb/hp C6 Z06 with 50/50 distribution.

i said "pretty much" so i did leave room for exceptions... most 500hp cars cost at least twice as much as the FR-S (http://www.autoweek.com/article/2013...news/130529790). Just go through that list. Many people on this forum who used to own 911 gt2's, m5's, ect went to the FR-S because the fun was cheaper and more usable every day.

If you spent the same amount of money on a 350whp FR-S as a stock Z06, the FR-S would be just as fast every day of the week every time (this is considering equal tires and drivers on the same day).

Also a 50/50 weight distribution isn't ideal for handling and this is proven time and time again. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=weight+distribution+of+race+cars) If it were so good then purpose built race cars would all have 50/50 weight distribution.

The corvette is fast on the track because it shares the same ideal points as the FR-S. Low weight, Low Cog, and a Proper suspension configuration. It is a great car and fits in a performance/price bracket below the GTR.

EDIT

They are both great cars, but i would much rather spend every day in a boosted FR-S over a corvette....
1. I can go through twice as many tires on the FR-S vs Z06 for the same price
2. I don't like buying factory power unless it would be for the sake of owning a piece of automotive art like a super car for example...
3. My kids fit in the back seat of my FR-S whereas there are only 2 seats in the corvette...

Originally Posted by livingbreathingproof

Boosting the FRS (300hp) will beat a Boss 302?
Not to say I don't believe it...it's just hard to fathom.

My BMW was fast, but I still feel like it could be easily beaten.
I still feel like if the FRS were blown, the BMW would still blow the doors off of it.

Boss 302

3641 lbs
~390rwhp

9.33589 lbs/hp

FR-S boosted

2800lbs
~300rwhp

9.33333 lbs/hp

With the FR-S having better gear ratios and final drive to put the power down... then i would say yes but its soo close that it would pretty much come down to a driver's race rather than 1 car is outright faster than the other...

Assuming the FR-S probably had better tires vs the Boss which was bone stock... I don't have a hard time believing that the FR-S could beat a Boss 302

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Good points. What do you think about Nissan's claims when designing the 350z that they intentionally targeted a 53/47 weight distribution to account for weight transfer to the rear when accelerating out of a corner?

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/nissan...ept-cars15.htm

The 350z understeers a fair bit though, at least in stock form with the staggered tire setup, so maybe it's not the best example

The only other advantage I can think of with front-biased cars is that catching and recovering from oversteer is easier. I've found that to be true with the FR-S on the track. I've always attributed that to the lighter rear end.

my best friend has a z and his first couple track days were just him fighting the massive understeer. going to a square setup, he reported a really neutral handling car and i believe him.

i really think the issue is original design and the intent of the cars. even if you put an lsx in an frs, mod for mod after that i dont know if it would lap faster than the vette. i think power/weight is overrated. maybe we should evaluate power/overal losses from weight, mechanical and aero drag. thats not even mentioning the inherent stability the vette has since its a bigger wheelbase.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by fatoni

my best friend has a z and his first couple track days were just him fighting the massive understeer. going to a square setup, he reported a really neutral handling car and i believe him.

i really think the issue is original design and the intent of the cars. even if you put an lsx in an frs, mod for mod after that i dont know if it would lap faster than the vette. i think power/weight is overrated. maybe we should evaluate power/overal losses from weight, mechanical and aero drag. thats not even mentioning the inherent stability the vette has since its a bigger wheelbase.

Yeah I agree with you, power-to-weight is not always the best indication of performance. It completely disregards drivetrain, suspension, tires, brakes, weight distribution, CG height, dimensions, aero, and a whole host of other relevant factors. I think it's used though because it's simple.

BTW good to hear about your friend liking the square setup on his 350z. I'm also thinking about moving to a square track setup on mine, but need to rig a switch to completely disable VSC first. I hear you get some unpredictable effects when cornering without it.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

If you spent the same amount of money on a 350whp FR-S as a stock Z06, the FR-S would be just as fast every day of the week every time (this is considering equal tires and drivers on the same day).

And with the same money spent on a 240Z with only 300whp, I'd kill the FR-S and the Z06! I bet...

Also a 50/50 weight distribution isn't ideal for handling

Exactly. I've always HATED it when marketers and magazine writers refer to 50/50 as "perfect" or "ideal". For a decent power/weight rear-drive car, you want more rearward weight distribution, and the FR-S is a decent amount on the WRONG SIDE of 50/50. At 7 lb/hp, 54/46 is going to be a real handicap. Even 50/50 is a real handicap for my FD (5.8 lb/hp)! I'd MUCH rather have 45F/55R...

They are both great cars, but i would much rather spend every day in a boosted FR-S over a corvette....

I like smaller lighter-weight cars better for 99% of driving. IMO the FR-S is going to be a more practical and more FUN real-world sports car.

Boss 302
3641 lbs
~390rwhp
9.33589 lbs/hp

FR-S boosted
2800lbs
~300rwhp
9.33333 lbs/hp

If you account for 200 lb. worth of driver and gear, the Boss 302 is more like 9.8 lb/rwhp and the boosted FR-S 10.0 lb/rwhp. Close enough!

With the FR-S having better gear ratios and final drive to put the power down...

Not a given that the boosted FR-S's gearing would be "better". With that much additional power it's probably overgeared. But it totally depends on the track. Numerically higher gearing isn't always better, you can easily find yourself having to shift too often and in the wrong places. Totally depends on the course...

then i would say yes but its soo close that it would pretty much come down to a driver's race rather than 1 car is outright faster than the other...
Assuming the FR-S probably had better tires vs the Boss which was bone stock... I don't have a hard time believing that the FR-S could beat a Boss 302

Maybe, but I believe the extra power will require supporting mods to put it to the ground. Particularly front/rear roll stiffness distribution.
In any case, it would be fun to find out!

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by ZDan

And with the same money spent on a 240Z with only 300whp, I'd kill the FR-S and the Z06! I bet...

so you agree?

Originally Posted by ZDan

Exactly. I've always HATED it when marketers and magazine writers refer to 50/50 as "perfect" or "ideal". For a decent power/weight rear-drive car, you want more rearward weight distribution, and the FR-S is a decent amount on the WRONG SIDE of 50/50. At 7 lb/hp, 54/46 is going to be a real handicap. Even 50/50 is a real handicap for my FD (5.8 lb/hp)! I'd MUCH rather have 45F/55R...

True and that's why Porsches are a dream to drive being rear engine and all. With the right suspension set up, a forward biased weight distribution is still ok on the twins because of the short wheel base it has. Also a lowered FR-S has a better COG than a Z06

Originally Posted by ZDan

I like smaller lighter-weight cars better for 99% of driving. IMO the FR-S is going to be a more practical and more FUN real-world sports car.

Yeah this is one reason I would probably never see myself driving big high horsepower cars.

Originally Posted by ZDan

If you account for 200 lb. worth of driver and gear, the Boss 302 is more like 9.8 lb/rwhp and the boosted FR-S 10.0 lb/rwhp. Close enough!

still very close, something as bad as a slow shift would give either one of those cars the win.

Originally Posted by ZDan

Not a given that the boosted FR-S's gearing would be "better". With that much additional power it's probably overgeared. But it totally depends on the track. Numerically higher gearing isn't always better, you can easily find yourself having to shift too often and in the wrong places. Totally depends on the course...

Sorry i forgot to clarify, I'm strictly talking straight line drag racing. Edit: Also shifting is the best part of tracking your car, I go for the fun of it. This is why rowing through the gears just to get to 60mph in an AE86 and merge on the freeway made that car so fun

Originally Posted by ZDan

Maybe, but I believe the extra power will require supporting mods to put it to the ground. Particularly front/rear roll stiffness distribution.
In any case, it would be fun to find out!

I think the first problem at those power levels is the tires themselves and their width. The suspension is most likely overwhelmed but not to any critical degree. A nice set of monotube coilovers would complement the car at stock power levels

[livingbreathingproof]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

i said "pretty much" so i did leave room for exceptions... most 500hp cars cost at least twice as much as the FR-S (http://www.autoweek.com/article/2013...news/130529790). Just go through that list. Many people on this forum who used to own 911 gt2's, m5's, ect went to the FR-S because the fun was cheaper and more usable every day.

If you spent the same amount of money on a 350whp FR-S as a stock Z06, the FR-S would be just as fast every day of the week every time (this is considering equal tires and drivers on the same day).

Also a 50/50 weight distribution isn't ideal for handling and this is proven time and time again. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=weight+distribution+of+race+cars) If it were so good then purpose built race cars would all have 50/50 weight distribution.

The corvette is fast on the track because it shares the same ideal points as the FR-S. Low weight, Low Cog, and a Proper suspension configuration. It is a great car and fits in a performance/price bracket below the GTR.

EDIT

They are both great cars, but i would much rather spend every day in a boosted FR-S over a corvette....
1. I can go through twice as many tires on the FR-S vs Z06 for the same price
2. I don't like buying factory power unless it would be for the sake of owning a piece of automotive art like a super car for example...
3. My kids fit in the back seat of my FR-S whereas there are only 2 seats in the corvette...



Boss 302

3641 lbs
~390rwhp

9.33589 lbs/hp

FR-S boosted

2800lbs
~300rwhp

9.33333 lbs/hp

With the FR-S having better gear ratios and final drive to put the power down... then i would say yes but its soo close that it would pretty much come down to a driver's race rather than 1 car is outright faster than the other...

Assuming the FR-S probably had better tires vs the Boss which was bone stock... I don't have a hard time believing that the FR-S could beat a Boss 302

Interesting numbers...
Interesting enough to make me want to keep my FRS and just boost it.

Something that I can't seem to fathom, though...
The FRS will have the same power, roughly...but less torque than a 302. It seems weird thinking about keeping up with a 302, but not being sucked into the seat much.

And it's like...downshifting to third gear on the highway and flooring it now is a complete bore and a disappointment. I'm wondering how much improvement boosting it would actually add.


If I wanted to keep the FRS...would it be a waste being as I leased the vehicle? Not really sure how all of that works.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by livingbreathingproof

Interesting numbers...
Interesting enough to make me want to keep my FRS and just boost it.

Something that I can't seem to fathom, though...
The FRS will have the same power, roughly...but less torque than a 302. It seems weird thinking about keeping up with a 302, but not being sucked into the seat much.

The feeling of being sucked into the seat is dependent on acceleration, not torque. If it's accelerating as fast as a 302, it'll push you back into the seat the same amount.

[carbonBLUE]

Why people lease vehicles? I have no idea lol...

[livingbreathingproof]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

Why people lease vehicles? I have no idea lol...

I would not have been able to afford the payments if I'd have bought it.
My main goal was to just find a car that I LIKED that I could have a peace of mind with until I got my degree.
I figured that if the numbers were right in the end, I'd just buy it out if I planned on keeping it.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by livingbreathingproof

I would not have been able to afford the payments if I'd have bought it.
My main goal was to just find a car that I LIKED that I could have a peace of mind with until I got my degree.
I figured that if the numbers were right in the end, I'd just buy it out if I planned on keeping it.

Well to be honest, finish up the degree then think about upgrading the car. Do small things first that don't have anything to compromise the engine longevity.
Get shift springs, brake cooling kits, oil coolers, transmission coolers, all the supporting mods until you land that awesome job after college. Then you will be able to take on the financial responsibility of turboing the car and also the car will be ready to take the new power after since you will have the supporting mods already sorted. In the end you will have a much better car then just going straight to turbo.

Its like going to gym to lose weight without changing your diet first.

[livingbreathingproof]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

Well to be honest, finish up the degree then think about upgrading the car. Do small things first that don't have anything to compromise the engine longevity.
Get shift springs, brake cooling kits, oil coolers, transmission coolers, all the supporting mods until you land that awesome job after college. Then you will be able to take on the financial responsibility of turboing the car and also the car will be ready to take the new power after since you will have the supporting mods already sorted. In the end you will have a much better car then just going straight to turbo.

Its like going to gym to lose weight without changing your diet first.

I'm definitely not doing anything to jeopardize the longevity of the car until I graduate/until I decide to buy the car.

Unfortunately, my degree is in automotive technology, so I'm unsure of what "awesome" jobs are out there, sadly. I hate working at a dealer (which is where I'm at now).

But, yeah. The FRS does seems fun turbo'd.
The thing that gets me is...
With $5k, you can turbo the FRS.
What could $5k get you with an already-boosted car (Evo, STI, Cobra, etc.)?

So many choices.

[robwbright]

Originally Posted by livingbreathingproof

I don't really get a joy out of driving the FRS. Instead, it's always like, "I need to go up this damn hill. Better hunt for gears." Or there is a car coming...

Different strokes for different folks... everyone has their preferences and none of them are right or wrong. Personally, I like grabbing gears. Dropping from 6th to 3rd at 55 mph to pass someone is fun for me. But that's probably because...

I come from a 2 stroke small bore motocross background (and more recently the very high revving 4 strokes... my current favorite bike is a 150 4 stroke intended for 15 year olds. The 150 weighs 170 pounds, turns 14,400 rpm and makes about 24 HP at 13k. But then I only weigh 145, so I might as well be a 15 year old. LOL.).

I've never owned an automatic car and likely never will (unless it were a paddle shifted Porsche/Ferrari... and even then... probably go manual).

I've also never owned an 8 cyl. Nothing against them - love the power - but I'm used to small bores and lots of shifting from the MX stuff and I enjoy it. To me, it requires more skill and attention than merely twisting/stomping on the throttle. Sure, it's easier to ride a 450 MX bike with 60 HP around the track in 3rd gear all day long... but the 450 is also quite heavy (250 pounds which will freaking wear you out much faster) and frankly, that would bore me after awhile. It's a lot more fun for me to use nearly all of the potential that the 150 has - even though I have to shift it a lot - where the 450 might use only 2nd on the start and be able to stay in 3rd on most/all of the track, the 150 requires the use of 2nd through 5th to go fast. A 4th to 2nd shift for a tight corner is an every lap occurrence.

In fact, my lap times on the 150 are nearly identical to my lap times on my 250 that has 38 HP at 12.5k - and the weight between the two (including rider) is only about a 15% difference. It's funny - one day I was at the track practicing and ran a 1:50 lap time on the 150 and then ran a 1:49 on my 250 (track is right at a mile long, so jumps and hills average speed is a bit over 30 mph... let me tell you, if you hit the hard ground at 30+ mph with nothing on your legs and torso but a nylon jersey and pants with a little padding in them, it hurts).

I pulled off the track on the 250 and even though my time was slightly faster on the 250, a spectator commented about how good/fast a rider my brother was on that 150 (i.e. he didn't realize it was me riding both bikes back to back). I other words, I'm using almost all the power of the 150 and probably only 80% of the power of the 250.

Similarly, I drove a Genesis Couple 6cyl 6MT awhile back. Nice car and I'd be happy to own it, but IMO the stock chassis really isn't set up to handle 348 HP. Fun in a straight line, but even with his big, grippy tires, you couldn't really get on it in a corner without risking coming all the way around... and the extra weight made it feel like a pig compared to the BRZ. I easily preferred the BRZ overall even though I freely admit that I liked the extra power of the Gen Coupe (and the larger back seat was nice as well).

I'll be really happy when/if I can get my BRZ to accelerate equal to the Gen Coupe and still handle as well or better than it does stock. Which is why I'm saving for a supercharger.

[robwbright]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

Why people lease vehicles? I have no idea lol...

My '12 Accord Coupe is leased... Zero $$ down, 15k miles per year, 36 months for $254/month for a car that stickered for almost 24k. Full warranty for most of the mileage and I don't really have to do anything but rotate tires and change oil. That's why I leased. First time I've done it, but I'd do it again for a DD for my wife if the deal made sense. I don't mind working on bikes and cars, but I'd rather not spend all my time doing it.

[lava]

Originally Posted by livingbreathingproof

Maybe I haven't owned enough cars to know, but I just don't see the FRS as many others do -- loved by many, hated by me.

I think the brakes are horrendous. I compare them to having chalk board erasers sliding against a chalkboard. However, the brakes in my BMW were phenomenal (same feel as a 2013 SRT8 Grand Cherokee). So, my expectations are probably too high.

I don't really get a joy out of driving the FRS. Instead, it's always like, "I need to go up this damn hill. Better hunt for gears." Or there is a car coming...
Realistically, I have enough time to pull out...so, I do. But, after I do, it's like, "Hurry the fuck up, FRS. Dude's gonna ram you."

I guess another factor is...I've never pushed a car to its limits. While every car may have different turning abilities and such, they all feel the same to me because on the road, I'm too scared to see if my car can take a certain turn at whatever speed. So, I just slow down and turn.

No offense, but it sounds to me like you have no idea what the FR-S is, was built for, or what it can do. This car is for people who love driving, not people who want to win a stop light to stop light pissing contest.

[ame]http://youtu.be/XVgPcRPRbuw[/ame]