Question for BRZ and GT-87 hps?

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

You think? I don't know much about exhaust design, but if you look at the OEM headers the opposite pairs of cylinders join up in front of the engine, the 4 pipes converge into 2 that sit right next to each other. In that case, putting a twin scroll is easier than a single scroll, since you don't even need to merge the 2 pipes...right?

for a twin scroll you need to merge cylinders firing opposite of each other so I believe you would need to join cylinders on the opposite side of the engine. Not ideal but definitely not impossible.

these manifolds are definitely more expensive than what would be required for a single scroll but that price could probably dramatically reduced by mass production. Right now they are really only available for racing applications because no one else is really interested.

Subaru is going to have to go down this road at some time or another to continue to reduce engine sizes to meet cafe standards. Either that or they get that electric turbo they patented into production. Either way I don't care as the end result for us would be the same....minimal turbo lag and smooth torque.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by tachi1247

for a twin scroll you need to merge cylinders firing opposite of each other so I believe you would need to join cylinders months opposite side if the engine. Not ideal but definitely impossible.

these manifolds are definitely more expensive than what would be required for a single scroll but that price could probably dramatically reduced by mass production. Right now they are really only available for racing applications because no one else is really interested.

Subaru is going to have to go down this road at some time or another to continue to reduce engine sizes to meet cafe standards. Either that or they get that electric turbo thoughts patented into production. Either way I don't care as the end result for us would be the same....minimal turbo lag and smooth torque.

Conversely, you could grab a JDM EJ207 header and re-engineer (read: weld shit) it in the fashion required for this application.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Hold on a minute, SUB just said he hates turbo engine feel?????
I am in shock :O

I am surprised you are shock. I always mention my distaste for it and always mentioned that I like the idea of a FA25 engine instead.

[Gadflyii]

Originally Posted by cyde01

i wish i could see the world with rose colored glasses like you do. 300hp sports cars at $26k for everyone! if it were that easy then don't you think everyone would have done that already? why would nissan even bother to sell the z?

uhh..... There are a good number of near-to 300hp sportscars for 26k, on the market... so... not sure what you point is?

The Z is over due for a complete re-make. It is no longer performance/price competitive in the market, and if you go look at Nissan's Z sales it shows..

Originally Posted by cyde01

the logic you are using with the 2 cars you mentioned only look at the cost of parts and completely ignore economics. oh, hyundai can build a turbo sports car for 26k msrp, surely toyota can! lol knee grow please! you're talking about a korean car company! you can't compare korean car prices to japanese car prices at all, the korean won has a much more favorable exchange rate compared to the japanese yen and labor costs are still far lower than they are in japan. that's why hyundai and kia can offer similar content in cars at a lower price than the competition. concerning the impreza, hello economies of scale? the impreza is subaru's bread and butter compact sedan! it's not a low volume sports car. economies of scale state that the more units you sell of something, the lower each unit will cost to make. because pretty much most of the car aside from the turbo equipment are shared between the wrx and the impreza, the sheer volume of units sold allows them to lower the cost of each unit, even though it has awd and a turbo.

First of all... that is not how a free market works. Do I care that the Won is stonger to the Yen? No.

Do I care that Subaru sells more WRX's than Scion will sell FR-S? No.

The market is the market. All products in the market compete freely against each other. That is why is is called the free market.

None of those factors justify why I the customer should buy a lot less car for my 25k. If you go to the pricing thread (think it is "when price will be announced" someone made a really nice list of cars that will come in below the FR-S / BRZ 25k price point. You should go read it...

Originally Posted by cyde01

if the corolla was awd, and toyota decided to sell a turbo 260hp version of the corolla, i'm sure they'd be able to sell it for 26k. but a 26k turbo frs? when the assumption is the standard frs will be 25k? i wish i could be as optimistic as you but that just sounds damn naive.

Exactly my point. The base FR-S @25k is about 5k too much.... There is NOTHING in the FR-S that justifies that kind of price.. Again.. the TC likely costs more money produce than the FRS, and they should be priced about the same.

Originally Posted by cyde01

and by the way, i have already made these exact same arguments multiple times on this forum. i'm really tired of new members coming on here every 3-4 months and hearing the exact same argument and giving the exact same info back every single time. it may be a new discussion to you but i've argued the SAME thing about the SAME 2 CARS several times with several different members. it's a extremely dead horse that you guys are beating. and btw the moar powah crowd are the ones that started it this time.

Funny.. .if you have made them a few times, then surely this is not the first time you have been wrong.. you think you would of learned by now. Point blank, at 25k+ the car is overpriced in the US Market.

[Corey]

Originally Posted by Gadflyii

First of all... that is not how a free market works. Do I care that the Won is stonger to the Yen? No.

Do I care that Subaru sells more WRX's than Scion will sell FR-S? No.

The market is the market. All products in the market compete freely against each other. That is why is is called the free market.

None of those factors justify why I the customer should buy a lot less car for my 25k. If you go to the pricing thread (think it is "when price will be announced" someone made a really nice list of cars that will come in below the FR-S / BRZ 25k price point. You should go read it...



Exactly my point. The base FR-S @25k is about 5k too much.... There is NOTHING in the FR-S that justifies that kind of price.. Again.. the TC likely costs more money produce than the FRS, and they should be priced about the same.



Funny.. .if you have made them a few times, then surely this is not the first time you have been wrong.. you think you would of learned by now. Point blank, at 25k+ the car is overpriced in the US Market.

Well maybe you should care about the strength of the yen because it isn't exactly a secret that the Japanese economy is in terrible shape and the constant strengthening of the yen against the US dollar in recent years has dealt a huge blow to their export market. If you think it's overpriced then don't buy it. Toyota isn't pricing it based on what you want to pay. They are pricing it at what they have to to stay in business.

So you think the US BRZ is overpriced? Where I live the BRZ I priced out came to over $38,000 USD. The base BRZ (the trim level the US will not recieve) with steel wheels, no LSD, no climate control, etc. is over 26k USD. Even the Toyota 86 GT is over 35k USD. And the kicker is you can't even buy one because every single 2013 model is already sold.

You are making ridiculous comparisons without even an elementary understanding of economics. If you think you can get everything this car offers and more from a Korean car or an econobox then go buy one. I however think it is apparent from the sales in Japan and the enthusiasm of the members of this very forum that there are plenty of people out there who realize a car is more than the sum of all of its parts, and its value cannot simply be summarized by a list of features.

[Allch Chcar]

I was surprised that it even made 200BHP! With the mid $25k range we've heard about for the last couple of years, if they make a STI version it's going to be well over $30k without a turbo or higher output engine. Plus all of the advertising is pushing the driving aspect while downplaying the lack of HP. Sure signs of no prospect for a power increase. I don't expect any different from Subaru on the matter either.

My point is if you start debating more HP and this car, you've lost any credibility to me. Comparing the FT86 to midsize sedans it just asinine.

Now aftermarket/modifying is a completely different story. Even I might add a turbo/supercharger someday. But I know better than to expect one from the factory at this point and after they went through all the work to build a highoutput N/A version for a very low volume car.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Corey

the enthusiasm of the members of this very forum that there are plenty of people out there who realize a car is more than the sum of all of its parts, and its value cannot simply be summarized by a list of features.

Isn't that what we call fanboys? Seems like the perfect definition. I love the idea of this car as much as anyone. But I'm not gonna buy it if it is over priced. Let the fanboys buy it. Better options available at that point.

[Spaceywilly]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Isn't that what we call fanboys? Seems like the perfect definition. I love the idea of this car as much as anyone. But I'm not gonna buy it if it is over priced. Let the fanboys buy it. Better options available at that point.

Depends... I'm not really considering buying any cars right now other than the BRZ/FR-S, so I'm not concerned with how it is priced compared to other cars out there. The only reason I would not buy a BRZ/FR-S at this point is if they price it over what I can afford, but I don't really see that happening. What better option would you go to if the BRZ/FR-S is overpriced? Personally no cars on sale today <30k appeal to me, but the BRZ is exactly what I want.

[NERO]

Originally Posted by tachi1247

You aren't going to be getting cars with independent suspensions, touchscreen radios, leather interiors, and HID headlights for much under $30K

Not sure that's accurate, the new Camry SE, has close to that list and you can get the 4 Cyl. for $26K. It also has a navigation system with Entune for accessing the web. Add the things it doesn't, HID and the leather alcantera inserts and you'd still be under $30K.

[Spaceywilly]

Originally Posted by NERO

Not sure that's accurate, the new Camry SE, has close to that list and you can get the 4 Cyl. for $26K. It also has a navigation system with Entune for accessing the web. Add the things it doesn't, HID and the leather alcantera inserts and you'd still be under $30K.

Go buy a Camry then.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

What better option would you go to if the BRZ/FR-S is overpriced?

Rember no car is perfect and each has it's draw backs; too little hp, too expensive, too small, high maintance costs, too heavy, lack of aftermarket support...etc. I have a few ideas going on in the back of my head as other options. If you are locked into the BRZ, good for you. I'm not at the moment.

[Spaceywilly]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Rember no car is perfect and each has it's draw backs; too little hp, too expensive, too small, high maintance costs, too heavy, lack of aftermarket support...etc. I have a few ideas going on in the back of my head as other options. If you are locked into the BRZ, good for you. I'm not at the moment.

I wouldn't say I'm locked in. If the BRZ is more than I can afford I'll just keep driving my WRX until either the BRZ becomes more affordable or something better comes along. I'm just saying at this point there's nothing comparable on the market. All I want is RWD, non huge, affordable car. The Miata is close but I hate convertibles, so BRZ/FR-S is it for me.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

I wouldn't say I'm locked in. If the BRZ is more than I can afford I'll just keep driving my WRX until either the BRZ becomes more affordable or something better comes along. I'm just saying at this point there's nothing comparable on the market. All I want is RWD, non huge, affordable car. The Miata is close but I hate convertibles, so BRZ/FR-S is it for me.

Since those are your requirements, I agree there really ins't much else for you to look at. At this point my requirements really aren't that narrow.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by Gadflyii

The Z is over due for a complete re-make. It is no longer performance/price competitive in the market, and if you go look at Nissan's Z sales it shows..


Exactly my point. The base FR-S @25k is about 5k too much.... There is NOTHING in the FR-S that justifies that kind of price.. Again.. the TC likely costs more money produce than the FRS, and they should be priced about the same.

The Z had a complete remake in 2009. Not sure how that could be considered "overdue". We won't be seeing a new Z until 2015. There is a mid-cycle refresh coming this spring as a 2013 MY.

Before the economy tanked, Z sales were doing OK. A car like that is never going to continue it's initial sales volume because initial demand is what drives vehicles of this type.

You still haven't provided a single reason why the tC costs more to produce than the FRS. Everything about that car is cheaper than this model. Engine, suspension, interior, etc.

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

I was surprised that it even made 200BHP! With the mid $25k range we've heard about for the last couple of years, if they make a STI version it's going to be well over $30k without a turbo or higher output engine. Plus all of the advertising is pushing the driving aspect while downplaying the lack of HP. Sure signs of no prospect for a power increase. I don't expect any different from Subaru on the matter either.

What you are saying makes no sense. Of course the advertising for the current model is centered around what the car does best. I've never seen any company center an ad campaign about a cars weaknesses. Besides that, the current advertising campaign has absolutely nothing to do with what will be offered in the future.

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

My point is if you start debating more HP and this car, you've lost any credibility to me. Comparing the FT86 to midsize sedans it just asinine.

I don't think anyone is comparing the overall car to mid-size sedans only that the acceleration figures are on par with some of them. Obviously the FRS/BRZ will handle far better than those cars and offer a better driving experience, but that doesn't negate that those acceleration figures are slightly disappointing for a sports car.

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Now aftermarket/modifying is a completely different story. Even I might add a turbo/supercharger someday. But I know better than to expect one from the factory at this point and after they went through all the work to build a highoutput N/A version for a very low volume car.

They also went through all the work to make that same engine a high output FI one too. It has been confirmed by Subaru that a FA20 with a turbo will power the next WRX so maybe your expectations aren't well founded.

Originally Posted by NERO

Not sure that's accurate, the new Camry SE, has close to that list and you can get the 4 Cyl. for $26K. It also has a navigation system with Entune for accessing the web. Add the things it doesn't, HID and the leather alcantera inserts and you'd still be under $30K.

You would be darn close to 30k. This car isn't 30k either. My point in that original statement was that the car isn't over priced for what you are getting. There may be other vehicles that offer the same features at a very similar price point, but you aren't going to find any that offer those features at $25k which is what someone else was saying a limited BRZ should be priced at.