Question for BRZ and GT-87 hps?

[bneale]

Originally Posted by Mitch

This discussion reminds me of an advertisement Porsche did for the 944 Turbo: http://944turbo.net/wp-content/uploa...ifferences.jpg

Thanks for this. It just became a background pic for my computer. Nice looking ad!

bneale

[ZDan]

2005 N/A Miata: 142hp, 2447 lb.
2005 turbo Miata: 178hp, 2529 lb.

No way a mildly turbo'd FR-S/BRZ would end up weighing 3200 lb. as suggested above.
I'd say that +50hp, +100 lb. wouldn't be unreasonable to expect. IMO, that'd be the way to go, they could have big strength/life margins on components, and we could easily tweak it to 300+hp at our own risk. That'd be FINE w/ me!

[MrBonus]

Originally Posted by nate89

.

Yet look at Subaru's own lineup and the Impreza adds roughly 200 pounds from the standard car to the WRX and yet another couple hundred for the STi.

Take a look at the 911 lineup where a similarly equipped Turbo versus a C4S is generally 150 or so pounds heavier for another example.

Power almost always comes with the addition of weight.

[ZDan]

I am suggesting that if they turbo it they go the MILD turbo route a-la Mazdaspeed Miata, and keep supporting mods as minimal as they can get away with at the ~250hp level, and resist the urge to make a ton of other changes to move it upmarket.

Anyway, if 150 lb. added to a C4S to make a turbo 911, that would scale down quite a bit for a smaller/lighter-weight/less-powerful FR-S, so call it 100-120 lb. Point is that adding a bit of power doesn't *have* to add hundreds and hundreds of pounds of weight.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by ZDan

2005 N/A Miata: 142hp, 2447 lb.
2005 turbo Miata: 178hp, 2529 lb.

No way a mildly turbo'd FR-S/BRZ would end up weighing 3200 lb. as suggested above.
I'd say that +50hp, +100 lb. wouldn't be unreasonable to expect. IMO, that'd be the way to go, they could have big strength/life margins on components, and we could easily tweak it to 300+hp at our own risk. That'd be FINE w/ me!

this isnt fair though because the motor in the miata was meant to have a turbo. there wasnt alot of acquired weight because the car already had it when they decided to turbo the thing

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by cyde01

yeah but practically all the sports cars built today are about power. the miata and now the frs are the ONLY sports cars not about power. they were designed to be different from the start, to buck the trend, they were advertised as such, targeted towards people that want to buck the trend.

if you are into torque, plain and simple: more cylinders than 4 is ideal for you. 4 cylinder engines are just not built for low or midrange, if you build a 4 cylinder for torque you sacrifice top end horsepower like in the ka24. so what you want is something with more cylinders, but you can't stick an engine with more cylinders in a lightweight compact car like the miata or the frs without using expensive materials like the 6 cylinder exige or evora.

if this car was built for torque and horsepower, it would be just like all the other sports cars on the market today. if horsepower is what you want, why not just buy what's already on sale now? the new z's lighter and more compact than the old one. the domestic pony cars are heavy but a good value as far as horsepower per dollar.

this car was built for balance, something that a select few find even more important than power to weight. and it was built for that small minority of people who "get it." the reason why it wasn't built for people who prioritize torque, power to weight, and power to dollar is because there are plenty of options on the market for people like that already!

with the exception of the camaro and mustang gt I would say your statement is inaccurate. Almost all of the other sports cars are about handling & power. We have yet to see a comparison of this car with anything else so while we know it is going to handle well no-one has said it will handle better than a 370z or even a boss mustang for that matter. Edit: within 5k of this price range.

as to the second item, the only other non muscle car available with 2 doors, rwd, and 4 seats is a genesis coupe so there aren't a lot of other choices.

Originally Posted by MrBonus

50 pounds if it's done by a private shop that doesn't design and test it to meet all worldwide emissions standards and to last 100,000+ miles of driving in numerous weather, conditions, and environments.

In reality, a turbocharger means more cooling (larger radiator, piping, oil cooler(s)), larger wheels and tires, transmission upgrades (synchros, input/output shafts, driveshaft), various suspension upgrades, many of which involve greater weight like half-shafts, calipers, rotors, larger master cylinder.

Then you have to meet low-speed impact requirements which may require additional reinforcement in the front to protect the additional hardware.

So now you have a 3200 pound car with 280 horsepower that is essentially another direct competitor to the 370Z in both price and size.

50 pounds is about right. All of those items that need upgrading are all incremental weight increases. You don't need 2 of everything so the weight gain is minimal.

all of the extra weight you see on turbo models is usually due to them being better equipped models. A non-turbo similarly optioned would come in close to the same.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by fatoni

this isnt fair though because the motor in the miata was meant to have a turbo. there wasnt alot of acquired weight because the car already had it when they decided to turbo the thing

I seriously doubt the turbo Miata has the same engine as the non-turbo. For sure the compression ratio will be lower, it might have different (stronger) pistons, likely a different cam, etc. etc.

There's nothing MAGICAL about turboing an engine, even if it wasn't "meant to have a turbo". For a mild turbo applicaion, minor mods that don't impact weight. If you want to go 20+ psi boost and more than double the power, yeah there might be some issues to work out. But for lowish to medium boost levels, the major loads in the engine are inertial and not boost related.

Also, the NB came out in 1998, the turbo Mazdaspeed version didn't arrive until 2004. Are you suggesting that they all came with "turbo motors" but no turbo until the 2004 Mazdaspeed?

Anyway, a number of engines that weren't "meant to have turbos" have been turbo'd throughout automotive history, often with minimal weight impact.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by fatoni

this isnt fair though because the motor in the miata was meant to have a turbo. there wasnt alot of acquired weight because the car already had it when they decided to turbo the thing

the motor in the brz was already designed to have a turbo also. Its going into the wrx.

the turbo miata also had many features which weren't included in the base model and thus aren't included in the curb weight shown.

[koyv90]

Originally Posted by cyde01

yeah but practically all the sports cars built today are about power. the miata and now the frs are the ONLY sports cars not about power. they were designed to be different from the start, to buck the trend, they were advertised as such, targeted towards people that want to buck the trend.

if you are into torque, plain and simple: more cylinders than 4 is ideal for you. 4 cylinder engines are just not built for low or midrange, if you build a 4 cylinder for torque you sacrifice top end horsepower like in the ka24. so what you want is something with more cylinders, but you can't stick an engine with more cylinders in a lightweight compact car like the miata or the frs without using expensive materials like the 6 cylinder exige or evora.

if this car was built for torque and horsepower, it would be just like all the other sports cars on the market today. if horsepower is what you want, why not just buy what's already on sale now? the new z's lighter and more compact than the old one. the domestic pony cars are heavy but a good value as far as horsepower per dollar.

this car was built for balance, something that a select few find even more important than power to weight. and it was built for that small minority of people who "get it." the reason why it wasn't built for people who prioritize torque, power to weight, and power to dollar is because there are plenty of options on the market for people like that already!

k20/k24 got great torque.
Mitsubishi lancer evos and subaru wrxs also got great torque outputs.

[koyv90]

I wonder what engine would weight less? the wrx/sti motor ej, or the new frs motor?
Would a engine swap really be the best way to go. hmmm

[Gadflyii]

Originally Posted by MrBonus

50 pounds if it's done by a private shop that doesn't design and test it to meet all worldwide emissions standards and to last 100,000+ miles of driving in numerous weather, conditions, and environments.

In reality, a turbocharger means more cooling (larger radiator, piping, oil cooler(s)), larger wheels and tires, transmission upgrades (synchros, input/output shafts, driveshaft), various suspension upgrades, many of which involve greater weight like half-shafts, calipers, rotors, larger master cylinder.

Then you have to meet low-speed impact requirements which may require additional reinforcement in the front to protect the additional hardware.

So now you have a 3200 pound car with 280 horsepower that is essentially another direct competitor to the 370Z in both price and size.

Come on.. seriously? 500lbs? Not by a long shot... point and case...

2011 Subaru Impreza manual (base model, no options): 3075 lbs
2011 Subaru Impreza WRX manual: 3208 lbs

That is 133lbs difference with all the additional standard equipment....

So yes.. @50 lbs in a shop, and @100lbs if the OEM does it.

[Gadflyii]

Originally Posted by cyde01

i'm not saying balance can only be attained without a supercharger or turbocharger.

let me rephrase from my earlier post. this car is all about balance AND low cost. yes, you can add boost to this car and have a lot more torque and hp with minimal weight gains. and the car would cost $32k. not to mention all the added maintenance cost that boost demands. so what's the point, when there are so many other alternatives at that price point, like the 370z, genesis coupe, the domestic pony cars, etc etc.

no, the things that distinguish this car are awesome balance (as in low weight, compact dimensions, extreme low center of gravity) and inexpensive msrp (and a hardtop, to distinguish it from a miata).

32k?.. the WRX is AWD, and turbo charged and is 26k MSRP; the 270hp Genesis Coupe 2.0T R spec is 26k MSRP....

Both are larger, more expensive cars to make than the BRZ/ FR-S. Subaru already have the engine developed. Adding the turbo motor and all the supporting components would likely only add ~$1000 to the production costs of the car.

In addition, If you look the maintenance schedules on the Impreza, and the WRX I am quite sure you will find they are exactly the same.

What would distinguish the BRZ/FRS would be that same balance in a 2900lbs, 280hp 250 ft/lbs package at a market competitive price of 25-27k...

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Gadflyii

Come on.. seriously? 500lbs? Not by a long shot... point and case...

2011 Subaru Impreza manual (base model, no options): 3075 lbs
2011 Subaru Impreza WRX manual: 3208 lbs

That is 133lbs difference with all the additional standard equipment....

So yes.. @50 lbs in a shop, and @100lbs if the OEM does it.

Add another ~130lbs for the STI with larger brakes (weight mostly in the iron, not the caliper), beefier transmission, and beefier rear end. AWD and loads of torque don't play nice, hence the need for that awesome transmission (which I believe is where MOST of the weight differential comes from). The question with this car will not be whether or not it can take turbo, but rather how much turbo it can take before other components fail/need to upgraded as well.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by Gadflyii

32k?.. the WRX is AWD, and turbo charged and is 26k MSRP; the 270hp Genesis Coupe 2.0T R spec is 26k MSRP....

Both are larger, more expensive cars to make than the BRZ/ FR-S. Subaru already have the engine developed. Adding the turbo motor and all the supporting components would likely only add ~$1000 to the production costs of the car.

In addition, If you look the maintenance schedules on the Impreza, and the WRX I am quite sure you will find they are exactly the same.

What would distinguish the BRZ/FRS would be that same balance in a 2900lbs, 280hp 250 ft/lbs package at a market competitive price of 25-27k...

A turbo brz will definitely come in close to or above $30k. They have been saying mid 20s all along for the base model so the extra upgrades in the turbo version will definitely add a few thousand to the limited price. An sti version would probably use the limited model as a starting point sans the leather and then add on suspension bits, etc from there.