WARNING: DO NOT use 14mm OEM camber bolt in slotted hole

[wheelhaus]

Originally Posted by whataboutbob

"Yes, it goes toward positive camber when the suspension is loaded and negative camber when unloaded"

Sounds familiar.

I don't want to derail the thread, but some of the guys in the CSG/RCE suspension thread believe this isn't actually the case with this car, even though it's a strut style front end. It has to do with the geometry of the LCA and strut, where the strut is tilted inward at 15° but the LCA is still level. In order for compression to impose positive camber on the wheel, the LCA would have to swing upward well past 15° to be 90° square relative to the strut. Until this point, it gains more negative camber.

[Fett4Real]

Thats good practice, but really only need a line, not really 2. We use Torque marks on Aircraft and other important stuff.

[fooddude]

So is this just a single user, single incident thing? Sounds like it.

[spitfire481]

I run OEM camber bolt in the top hole, spc camber bolt in the lower hole. Both setup for Max negative camber. Its been about 8 months without any movement. I just checked today actually while I had the wheels off. I have ground control street series coilovers and neither hole is slotted. So my case is a little different but the info may help others

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by fooddude

So is this just a single user, single incident thing? Sounds like it.

Unless others start confirming they've had no slippage at the 114 ft-lb factory torque spec (the other guy is at 130 ft-lbs) in a slotted hole, you can say it's a 100% failure rate (1/1). There may be other factors unique to my case: material properties of my ST coilover housings and I've reused the hub knuckle-to-strut nuts 3 times (stock springs>STI springs>Sportlines>ST coilovers) and replaced them with new nuts only recently when I reverted to stock 16mm bolts.

That said, there are ways to make the 14mm OEM camber bolt work better as I've listed in my previous post.

[fooddude]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

Unless others start confirming they've had no slippage at the 114 ft-lb factory torque spec (the other guy is at 130 ft-lbs) in a slotted hole, you can say it's a 100% failure rate (1/1).

That wouldn't really be 100% if you only counted yourself against other crashbolt users. If you only counted yourself, it would def be 100%..but that would be a moot statistic.

You mean 1(as in yourself with this problem)/x-users, no?
x = the rest of the frs/brz users using oem crash bolts on slotted/oversized holes. ie: if there were 500 using the oem crash bolts and 1 reported slippage problem so far, it would actually be 1/500 = 0.2% failure rate.. or, until more people claim they are having the same problem.

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by fooddude

That wouldn't really be 100% if you only counted yourself against other crashbolt users. If you only counted yourself, it would def be 100%..but that would be a moot statistic.

You mean 1(as in yourself with this problem)/x-users, no?
x = the rest of the frs/brz users using oem crash bolts on slotted/oversized holes. ie: if there were 500 using the oem crash bolts and 1 reported slippage problem so far, it would actually be 1/500 = 0.2% failure rate.. or, until more people claim they are having the same problem.

I'm counting myself against other crashbolt in slotted hole users who have followed their service manual and coilover installation instructions. A statistic is valid when everything is standardized and variables eliminated. How many others have reported success using the same standard methods that we can validly include? That's where I got my 1/1 stat from. It's no longer a direct comparison when you throw in owners using non-standard installation values/hardware. One guy is fine with an aftermarket bolt (though if you look it up SPC explicitly states not to use their bolts in slotted holes). 129 ft-lbs is standard for the Impreza's bolt but not for the BRZ. Maybe the BRZ's lower 114 ft-lbs torque value has to do with the strut or hub knuckle or a material change in the bolt or nut or something else.

Could be other things in play. Suspensions that see hundreds of miles on track or autocross won't undergo as many abrupt shocks as on terrible SoCal roads (where I live). Their suspension may see hard forces applied gradually rather than frequent traumatic jolts that jar bolts loose (think impact wrench).

[fooddude]

Not meaning to be a j*rk...but my point is..you shouldn't tell others not to do something, when you are the only case and when it is a single user incident. It causes major confusion and misinformation.

Torque specs doesn't matter much, because you can easily just increase it; the oem bolts have a high threshhold (even higher than the aftermarket ones from what i'v read). And, an aftermarket bolt is not much different than an oem bolt inside a slotted hole (doesn't rely on the cam lobe anymore since its' in a slotted hole now) in regards to its' friction design and bite onto the strut mount/knuckle. ..these things are marginal; unless you make a fuss about it...and it is only fair to include them in comparison.

A poll asking who else has had this problem and whom has not, is the most fair way. And, so far, you are the only one...which is not a
"100% failure rate" (sorry and correct me if I am wrong, if someone else has had the problem). Telling others that it is a 100% sure and a 100% failure rate that you will have the same problem if you use an oem crash bolt in a slotted hole.. is kinda like me with a chicken dinner for tonight, telling others that it is a 100% failure rate that you will not be eating a delicious pizza tonight (just because I am not).

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by fooddude

Not meaning to be a j*rk...but my point is..you shouldn't tell others not to do something, when you are the only case and when it is a single user incident. It causes major confusion and misinformation.

Torque specs doesn't matter much, because you can easily just increase it; the oem bolts have a high threshhold (even higher than the aftermarket ones from what i'v read). And, an aftermarket bolt is not much different than an oem bolt inside a slotted hole (doesn't rely on the cam lobe anymore since its' in a slotted hole now) in regards to its' friction design and bite onto the strut mount/knuckle. ..these things are marginal; unless you make a fuss about it...and it is only fair to include them in comparison.

A poll asking who else has had this problem and whom has not, is the most fair way. And, so far, you are the only one...which is not a
"100% failure rate" (sorry and correct me if I am wrong, if someone else has had the problem). Telling others that it is a 100% sure and a 100% failure rate that you will have the same problem if you use an oem crash bolt in a slotted hole.. is kinda like me with a chicken dinner for tonight, telling others that it is a 100% failure rate that you will not be eating a delicious pizza tonight (just because I am not).

Uhhh... I already admitted like 3 times now that there are ways to make the 14mm bolt work. If you want to deviate from service manual/manufacturer's instructions, that's up to you (I won't stop you). I don't see where 1/1 = 100% using standard methods is misleading. It's very clear and correct actually. If you blatantly won't acknowledge what I took time to explain (concepts of control variables and sample size), then I see no value in arguing with someone who can't level, especially one who proceeds to tell me to basically STFU in my own thread. A thread intended to share my experience (transparent with info, pictures, and proposed solutions) with others so they can then make *informed* decisions. Take my words as a suggestion, not a demand.

I've snapped/cross-threaded/stripped/drilled out enough bolts and tapped/rethreaded enough bolts and holes to learn to avoid future overtorquing mishaps. I've spent enough late night hours undoing installation errors (mine or a mechanic's who didn't follow procedures) to convince me to go by the book. I've also taken a Materials Engineering course and did stress-strain lab experiments and have some respect for torque values. I'm aware they may have some "cushion" for deviation but that becomes a guessing game. When it comes to my suspension, I try not to leave anything to question. Don't want to "hope" it all holds.

An STI owner posted:

Re: Camber bolts slipping

i had them and they slipped on me too and about 20 other members of this forum.

An KW coilover owner (same manufacturer as my coilovers) posted:

The KW coilovers on my car are slotted from the factory. And I have a ton of problems with slippage

And I've googled many other posts about not using camber bolts in slotted holes. You make it seem like I'm spreading propaganda but I'm not the first man in history to experience this. Even camber bolt maker SPC says not to do it. Many have gotten along fine not following that suggestion. Many others haven't.

[fooddude]

As I've said ahead of time, "sorry & correct me if I'm wrong..." Thanks for the links of other users with the same problems and all the other info.

My bad for making you sound like hitler, lol

[FR-S Matt]

I think I'm going to just use the 16mm stock on the V3 top slotted hole. Should hopefully give enough camber.

[SLICVIC]

i have BC coilovers which come with a slightly notched top hole, i notched it even more with a dremel and used aftermarket camber bolts i had from my old sti , (i believe they are maybe 12mm) and got around -9 degrees of camber up front. Had this setup since august of last year never any slips. The camber bolts use a special washer with teeth to prevent slipping -





I didnt torque the nuts by spec just did it by hand as tight as i could , as well as the same on the bottom. i think i noticed on the first pic the washer/nut mark looks like the bolts werent originally tightened down in full Negative , when doing these bolts alot of people have problems when tightening the bolts, they slip when tightening. It makes it alot easier to have someone push the top of the rotor inwards and bottom of the rotor outwards and HOLD while u tighten. Another way, the way i did it, is to use the floor jack and place it right under the hub on the LCA and jack up. This force pushes the knuckle inwards to full max (rather than the theory of applying weight and it pushes full positive) and then tighten bolts. Not sure what happened in your case. Alot of the 240sx and GD impreza guys use this method for camber on mcpherson strut type suspensions.

http://zilvia.net/f/chat/422487-max-camber.html

Id also like to add that i dont drive my car hard, just cruise around. I know -9 could be a bit much , even for drifting, but just sharing ideas and my experiences

[mweidner311]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

@wparsons @Calum @post_break

So both my camber bolts DID slip after my first install despite torquing everything to the 114 ft-lbs spec in the max negative position. After I unbolted the top bolt and left the bottom bolt alone today, I saw camber had slipped to max positive:





The following pic shows the markings left behind from when the bolt slipped toward positive camber under the car's weight. Yes, it goes toward positive camber when the suspension is loaded and negative camber when unloaded which is why I saw the rotor slide toward negative camber when the car was jacked up in the air. That characteristic might hold true only when the *top bolt is LOOSER than bottom* (as was apparently the case with my camber bolt due to less clamping pressure) and may not necessarily be true when both bolts are equally loose. I replaced the 14mm camber bolt with the 16mm stock bolt shown here positioned for max negative camber.



The bolts didn't slip on the 30 minute drive to the alignment shop this time and front camber came out to -2.0/-1.7.

Thanks dude!

I installed my spc kit last night in the top hole like many others on here while putting my tools away I noticed the instructions said use the bottom hole contrary to the white line instructions that say use the top hole. after searching last night and all morning to make some sense of this it finally makes sense after reading your post.

SPC kit is a 14mm bolt for the BOTTOM hole as per the instructions Whiteline is a 16mm bolt for the TOP hole. I confirmed this with part numbers

Thanks again Ill be switching my bolt to the bottom when I get home

I'm assuming that where you ended up with your camber bolt as well right? Lower hole

Matthew

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by mweidner311

Thanks dude!

I installed my spc kit last night in the top hole like many others on here while putting my tools away I noticed the instructions said use the bottom hole contrary to the white line instructions that say use the top hole. after searching last night and all morning to make some sense of this it finally makes sense after reading your post.

SPC kit is a 14mm bolt for the BOTTOM hole as per the instructions Whiteline is a 16mm bolt for the TOP hole. I confirmed this with part numbers

Thanks again Ill be switching my bolt to the bottom when I get home

I'm assuming that where you ended up with your camber bolt as well right? Lower hole

Matthew

Good catch. I just used the same stock 14mm bolt for the lower hole. I have all the adjustment I need with the slotted upper holes and stock bolts all around.