Bad news from dealer

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Want.FR-S

I thought the Ota North plant is only manufacturing the automobile parts, and that plant is quite small (81 employees only).

Hmmm.. the foresters are made in the Yajima plant, not Ota-North plant.

Gunma Yajima Plant
Address 1-1, Shoya-cho, Ota-shi, Gunma 373-0822
Tel: (0276) 48-2701 Land Area(m²) 549,845 Buildings Area(m²) 255,023 Number of Employees 2,460 Manufactures Legacy, Exiga, Impreza and Forester:happy0180:

Good point. :thumb up: I was looking at some other websites that had Gunma Ota plant listed as the assembly plant for the Forester. Even wiki had that, but it must be outdated as the Yajima plant looks like the most up to date info. Anyways, Yajima is different from the Gunma Prefecture (main plant) where the BRZ will be made. But they are just down the street from each other.

[chulooz]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

I'm not blaming you. Just from other info we have received the plant was going to build the new Subaru Mini car (based off the Daihatsu) and the BRZ. If someone else has info that contradicts/updates this please let us know.


I should also note that I agree there will be BRZs available if you want to travel and deal with markup and other dealer antics where they pit you against other buyers. But I don't want to deal with that. Too much headache. That is why I will sit this one out and way for things to die down. I don't need this car right away.




No. Ota and Prefecture are two separate plants. That is how I have been lead to believe at least.

Evidence: http://www.fhi.co.jp/english/outline...line/domestic/

Im saying Gunma is the 'prefecture' and the plants are in the city Ota, right? The names are confusing, but Id guess theyd be built in the same place as imprezas, the 'yajima' plant. Yet i do recall newer additions for the BRZ.

[WhiteGDB]

Originally Posted by fistpoint

Not entirely accurate. Some states have a more strict CAFE standard, California to name just one(it might be the only one actually). I'm not sure what they do to the car to make it pass there though, but it IS something.

CAFE is a federal standard, not state by state. Are you thinking of CARB and emissions? Pretty much every new car in the US is 50 states emissions certified now and I'd suspect the the FT86 to be as well since it's pretty much a world car.

[dookie11]

Originally Posted by BMWDavid

Well it looks like I'm in. Will place order 9:00 AM Thursday. Will get it for MSRP with no add ons (sealant, protection plan etc.)

Much happier than I was a few hours ago!

What state are you from?

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Exactly. I hate dealerships like this. Next you will have a "dealership fee" added on to the new BRZ.

I've negotiated out of those before; however, no dealer was willing to waive this fee (pure profit for them) on this car. No incentive.

Originally Posted by Tbxgz

Yup...

Not really shocked.

Originally Posted by Tbxgz

My thinking is this: Im not looking for a good deal. I'm looking for a fair deal. MSRP isnt great but its fair based on the market. Ive reached out to at least 4 dealers in the DC metro area; all are offering MSRP or x over invoice. Now my main dealer (Fitzgerald) is saying they might do a 1k mark up.

Now based of what other dealers are offering it feels like they are taking advantage of me. I can walk and if I convince 2 people to buy from another dealership, they've already lost 2 sales. They would have been better off, offering me MSRP pricing. If every other maryland dealer is doing MSRP (or below), it makes them looking really bad...

Wow. I pulled my deposit at the last minute. Fitzgerald's always given me a weird vibe. like they don't really care. Granted the salesman I was dealing with was older, but he didn't seem to interested in selling me the car. Now, the new dealer I'm working with DOES seem interested; but we'll see how that goes once I take delivery of the vehicle.

I've never paid MSRP for a car, and I'm not about to ever pay more than MSRP. I did happen to come upon a better deal elsewhere and Fitzgerald told me that they wouldn't match it and would likely be selling cars at MSRP. Sure, Fitz...Sure. MSRP isn't exactly a bad deal, but it's also more than I would hope to pay. Though as we've been shown, it doesn't seem many dealers have any incentive to sell below MSRP.

FWIW, when the WRX was purchased new from Fitzgerald in 2001, they attempted a $1k markup on delivery despite the fact they had agreed via email to sell it at invoice + a few hundred. Generally they have good prices, but they give me the stealership vibe pretty hard.

Originally Posted by dookie11

What state are you from?

He says it here:

Originally Posted by BMWDavid

Just got off the phone again with my dealer. They spoke with their district sales rep and he said that Indiana (my State) and Kentucky will only get 37 cars over the next 7 months!

He said I have the same chance at my dealer as any other Indiana/Kentucky dealer and since I'm the first and only to ask about the BRZ they will take my order/deposit Thursday. So I'll be in and hope a car comes in sooner than later.

I'm feeling better about all of this now. Can't wait for my WR Blue Limited 6 MT.

[dwmilton]

Something about Subaru limiting the availability rings hollow with me. Not saying it ain't happening, I just have a gut feeling it won't last long. Not long at all.

People cite supply & demand, but there's also risk for the makers. Toyota & Subaru have a pretty good investment in this car, and want to maximize profit on it. You don't maximize profit by gashing a relative few people, on a modestly priced item. We're not talking a $90,000 Porsche, here.

We all know the gestation of the car has been drawn out. Think about all the cars we see travelling around to US dealerships. As has been said before; all the auto shows, the dealer reveals, Greddy showing a modded car, the pre-orders & "First 86" program. I just refer to all the above as the "hype".

It seems the great majority of the test drives I've read have been done in Japan. Why? We know the cars exist stateside. I haven't read of a single instrumented test performed by a US magazine, yet the car lands in the next few months. I feel it's being very carefully orchestrated by the makers to gauge the full sales potential for the platform, and to get buyers lined up five wide & thirty deep to own one of these fun, AFFORDABLE, sports cars. They want to emphasize rarity. Afterall, those guys had to fly all the way to Japan to test the car, right?

Back to economics. Supply & demand. If all the stores near you run out of Coke, or jack the price up, at what point do you stop ignoring Pepsi? I don't think Subaru & Toyota are creating a buying frenzy, to sit back and watch a decent percentage of potential buyers get upset & go shop a Genesis coupe, GTI, Miata, 370Z, V6 Mustang, Civic Si, or whatever.

I'd like to know what the production capacity of the plant is. I'd like to see "spy" photos of the parking areas around the factory. I haven't seen any reports of tours to the factory. When I Google-searched for BRZ photos, it seems like there's a lot of them in dealer showrooms in Japan. I feel in my gut that the cars are out there; Subaru/Toyota just want it to seem otherwise. I wanna hear from someone on the ground in Japan; what's up?

I'm guessing that once the initial batches of the cars are snapped up from the dealers, we'll hear of "increased production" to meet demands and such. The second & third wave of deliveries will easily meet demand. Toyota & Subaru aren't dumb. They need to recoup on the R&D costs. They want to sell 40,000 of these things, not 10,000. All new engine, excepting a few bolts; all new platform, excepting a couple suspension bits here & there. You don't recoup that by selling a modestly priced car in limited quantities. You build demand to a writhing level, then you give the consumer what they are begging you to take their money for.

On a last note. The offerings (US market) are pretty streamlined. Three cars (FR-S BRZ-P, BRZ-L), two tannys, eight total paint colors; seven per brand. 14 possible combinations for the FR-S, 28 for the BRZ; 42 total for the USDM. That's not a ton of variety. "First 86"? They could build seven each of every possible combination, and have it covered. Of course they'd use market research, etc. to know what the most & least popular combinations are. My point is: All those cars could very well already be built, just waiting to be shipped. You ship the First 86 cars, and the pre orders, you hold back others. If there's an odd run on what marketing predicted to be a low volume combination, well those are the people that have to wait for the second wave. Hey, it's a limited production car afterall, huh?

Just my rambling thoughts. Lemme know if this needs to be moved somewhere more appropriate.

/rant

[OrbitalEllipses]

[QUOTE=fistpoint;144668]Not entirely accurate. Some states have a more strict CAFE standard, California to name just one(it might be the only one actually). I'm not sure what they do to the car to make it pass there though, but it IS something.

Indeed, there are states that have adopted California regulations. For example, Maryland, among a host of others, requires the same emissions equipment as a "California-spec" vehicle.

Originally Posted by fistpoint

Sure, but Scion's Pure Price includes $1200 or more tacked onto their invoice price. When was the last time you spent anywhere close to that much over invoice on a new car that wasn't rare? That's 4-5 times more than I'm used to based on my last 4 purchases. I hate Pure Pricing, it's for nimbulbs who lack any negotiating skills.

This is why I don't like Pure Pricing. The way it was explained to me at the dealership was a little different though: it just means the advertised price has to match what's on the paper. They could advertise it below MSRP and that's what you pay (good deal). Conversely, they could advertise it $1k above MSRP and that's what you pay (bad deal). Pure Pricing does not strictly mean they sell it at the price SCION sets. There are people that like this model, I would rather haggle...


My thoughts in red below.

Originally Posted by dwmilton

Something about Subaru limiting the availability rings hollow with me. Not saying it ain't happening, I just have a gut feeling it won't last long. Not long at all.

At least for this model year I believe they will try to artificially limit supply to increase demand. That of course, isn't long considering truly rare cars are produced in far lower numbers, don't have sister vehicles released by another brand, and usually have two year waiting lists.

People cite supply & demand, but there's also risk for the makers. Toyota & Subaru have a pretty good investment in this car, and want to maximize profit on it. You don't maximize profit by gashing a relative few people, on a modestly priced item. We're not talking a $90,000 Porsche, here.

Is it possible that building these for Toyota is enough profit for Subaru and as such, they don't really have a NEED to sell this car as much as they WANT/COULD sell this car?

We all know the gestation of the car has been drawn out. Think about all the cars we see travelling around to US dealerships. As has been said before; all the auto shows, the dealer reveals, Greddy showing a modded car, the pre-orders & "First 86" program. I just refer to all the above as the "hype".

It seems the great majority of the test drives I've read have been done in Japan. Why? We know the cars exist stateside. I haven't read of a single instrumented test performed by a US magazine, yet the car lands in the next few months. I feel it's being very carefully orchestrated by the makers to gauge the full sales potential for the platform, and to get buyers lined up five wide & thirty deep to own one of these fun, AFFORDABLE, sports cars. They want to emphasize rarity. Afterall, those guys had to fly all the way to Japan to test the car, right?


Back to economics. Supply & demand. If all the stores near you run out of Coke, or jack the price up, at what point do you stop ignoring Pepsi? I don't think Subaru & Toyota are creating a buying frenzy, to sit back and watch a decent percentage of potential buyers get upset & go shop a Genesis coupe, GTI, Miata, 370Z, V6 Mustang, Civic Si, or whatever.

To address all of the above: something's brewing for sure. They're playing the market to create demand, but truly how many people's attention are they getting? Us enthusiasts in the know are few and there hasn't been aggressive marketing outside of that community, at all I think. Either the price is going to suck or there's another ulterior motive, though I couldn't imagine what that is. We can't be the whole market for this car, or it will die a fast death. There's been little marketing outside of word of mouth; this has to be the ugliest launch of a new car I've seen in a while. There's something else happening behind the scenes that's at work here. The new GenCoupe prices came out and we're still without a price. Subaru knows the enthusiasts will buy the car up to a certain point and having people in line with deposits makes them more willing to buy a car that's more expensive than initially projected, BUT that makes no sense in gaining overall market share/sales. Perhaps they aren't interested in selling this car? I keep coming to this conclusion...

I'd like to know what the production capacity of the plant is. I'd like to see "spy" photos of the parking areas around the factory. I haven't seen any reports of tours to the factory. When I Google-searched for BRZ photos, it seems like there's a lot of them in dealer showrooms in Japan. I feel in my gut that the cars are out there; Subaru/Toyota just want it to seem otherwise. I wanna hear from someone on the ground in Japan; what's up?

The only thing I can say on this is that this car comes out in March for Japan; I imagine they're busy building them for that market right now as demand was initially high and both companies expect demand to stay high.

I'm guessing that once the initial batches of the cars are snapped up from the dealers, we'll hear of "increased production" to meet demands and such. The second & third wave of deliveries will easily meet demand. Toyota & Subaru aren't dumb. They need to recoup on the R&D costs. They want to sell 40,000 of these things, not 10,000. All new engine, excepting a few bolts; all new platform, excepting a couple suspension bits here & there. You don't recoup that by selling a modestly priced car in limited quantities. You build demand to a writhing level, then you give the consumer what they are begging you to take their money for.

See above. Here's my baseless theory: they aren't interested in selling the car here, but are doing so simply because they can. This platform isn't their interest; adapting new technology and what was learned from this into future models is where the bread and butter is.

On a last note. The offerings (US market) are pretty streamlined. Three cars (FR-S BRZ-P, BRZ-L), two tannys, eight total paint colors; seven per brand. 14 possible combinations for the FR-S, 28 for the BRZ; 42 total for the USDM. That's not a ton of variety. "First 86"? They could build seven each of every possible combination, and have it covered. Of course they'd use market research, etc. to know what the most & least popular combinations are. My point is: All those cars could very well already be built, just waiting to be shipped. You ship the First 86 cars, and the pre orders, you hold back others. If there's an odd run on what marketing predicted to be a low volume combination, well those are the people that have to wait for the second wave. Hey, it's a limited production car afterall, huh?

Just my rambling thoughts. Lemme know if this needs to be moved somewhere more appropriate.

Appropriate place. Your thoughts are cohesive and fluent, please continue posting.

/rant

[dwmilton]

Orbital,
Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it. It seems like we're thinking similar thoughts.

"Perhaps they aren't interested in selling this car? I keep coming to this conclusion..."

"See above. Here's my baseless theory: they aren't interested in selling the car here, but are doing so simply because they can. This platform isn't their interest; adapting new technology and what was learned from this into future models is where the bread and butter is."

When I read these statements, it was like an "aha!" moment. Like there's a piece of the puzzle missing, and only time will tell what it is. I'm hoping it's simple stuff, like: the FA20 being Subaru's new bread & butter engine; future STI products; return of the Celica or even Supra name to the USDM.

Looking short term, if Subaru adds a turbocharged BRZ STI; could/would Toyota market an equivalent duo as a Celica & Supra tandem? I'm an old guy, and remember the original Supras growing out of the Celica. I think that'd be a cool idea, although admittedly very far-fetched.

[OrbitalEllipses]

It might be far-fetched, but it fits any real paranoiac's theory *shifty eyes*. Subaru needed DI tech and now they have a new platform as well. Rumors of a turbocharged FA have been verified by Subaru, but not in the BRZ. As WRX/STI model line diverges from the Impreza, it would only make sense for it to get the newest tech. As far as Celica/Supra: I can't imagine the whole badge engineering twin-models thing going for very long. After this car, I imagine both companies will use the platform for what they want to, separate of each other.

Sorry for the guys.

[tachi1247]

Originally Posted by dwmilton

Something about Subaru limiting the availability rings hollow with me. Not saying it ain't happening, I just have a gut feeling it won't last long. Not long at all.

I don't think that Subaru is limiting the availability of the car, they are just recognizing that at initial launch supply will be very limited relative to demand. Since this car is launching worldwide it may take up to 7 months for production to meet the # of orders they are anticipating thus creating limited availability.

As described in this thread it sounds to me that they are describing the method for which orders will be filled out of the cars they have already produced. There aren't any options on this car so people are basically choosing color, trim level and trans. They aren't actually "custom building" any cars. If you want a premium with foglights, those foglights are getting installed at the dealer.

[tripjammer]

Originally Posted by dwmilton

Something about Subaru limiting the availability rings hollow with me. Not saying it ain't happening, I just have a gut feeling it won't last long. Not long at all.

People cite supply & demand, but there's also risk for the makers. Toyota & Subaru have a pretty good investment in this car, and want to maximize profit on it. You don't maximize profit by gashing a relative few people, on a modestly priced item. We're not talking a $90,000 Porsche, here.

We all know the gestation of the car has been drawn out. Think about all the cars we see travelling around to US dealerships. As has been said before; all the auto shows, the dealer reveals, Greddy showing a modded car, the pre-orders & "First 86" program. I just refer to all the above as the "hype".

It seems the great majority of the test drives I've read have been done in Japan. Why? We know the cars exist stateside. I haven't read of a single instrumented test performed by a US magazine, yet the car lands in the next few months. I feel it's being very carefully orchestrated by the makers to gauge the full sales potential for the platform, and to get buyers lined up five wide & thirty deep to own one of these fun, AFFORDABLE, sports cars. They want to emphasize rarity. Afterall, those guys had to fly all the way to Japan to test the car, right?

Back to economics. Supply & demand. If all the stores near you run out of Coke, or jack the price up, at what point do you stop ignoring Pepsi? I don't think Subaru & Toyota are creating a buying frenzy, to sit back and watch a decent percentage of potential buyers get upset & go shop a Genesis coupe, GTI, Miata, 370Z, V6 Mustang, Civic Si, or whatever.

I'd like to know what the production capacity of the plant is. I'd like to see "spy" photos of the parking areas around the factory. I haven't seen any reports of tours to the factory. When I Google-searched for BRZ photos, it seems like there's a lot of them in dealer showrooms in Japan. I feel in my gut that the cars are out there; Subaru/Toyota just want it to seem otherwise. I wanna hear from someone on the ground in Japan; what's up?

I'm guessing that once the initial batches of the cars are snapped up from the dealers, we'll hear of "increased production" to meet demands and such. The second & third wave of deliveries will easily meet demand. Toyota & Subaru aren't dumb. They need to recoup on the R&D costs. They want to sell 40,000 of these things, not 10,000. All new engine, excepting a few bolts; all new platform, excepting a couple suspension bits here & there. You don't recoup that by selling a modestly priced car in limited quantities. You build demand to a writhing level, then you give the consumer what they are begging you to take their money for.

On a last note. The offerings (US market) are pretty streamlined. Three cars (FR-S BRZ-P, BRZ-L), two tannys, eight total paint colors; seven per brand. 14 possible combinations for the FR-S, 28 for the BRZ; 42 total for the USDM. That's not a ton of variety. "First 86"? They could build seven each of every possible combination, and have it covered. Of course they'd use market research, etc. to know what the most & least popular combinations are. My point is: All those cars could very well already be built, just waiting to be shipped. You ship the First 86 cars, and the pre orders, you hold back others. If there's an odd run on what marketing predicted to be a low volume combination, well those are the people that have to wait for the second wave. Hey, it's a limited production car afterall, huh?

Just my rambling thoughts. Lemme know if this needs to be moved somewhere more appropriate.

/rant

6000 BRZ (500 per month) per year for North America and 6000 FR-S (500 per month) for NA per year is not limited. That is 12000 cars for North America. Y'all were expecting 30,000 cars a year for North America?

The factory could make that many but how many but I doubt they would sale that many.

[powertrip]

6k/6k for production is similar to the production runs for the Evo VIII/IX, and I wouldnt exactly call those rare. Probably similar to what they produce for STI as well. Definitely not limited supply or rare, more like just not mass market produced like a civic but definitely in line with standard sports cars (370z, etc)

[tripjammer]

Originally Posted by powertrip

6k/6k for production is similar to the production runs for the Evo VIII/IX, and I wouldnt exactly call those rare. Probably similar to what they produce for STI as well. Definitely not limited supply or rare, more like just not mass market produced like a civic but definitely in line with standard sports cars (370z, etc)

That's what I am saying. We also got to consider, Europe and Japan. 6k units per region per year is a lot of cars.

Figure April production for June delivery.

So May 2012 to November 2012 is 7 months X 450 units per month = 3150 BRZ's

Scion will probably be the same, maybe a bit more since they have more dealers than Subaru.

[tripjammer]

http://brzpost.com/threads/eliminati...available.149/

Ok...there seems to be some confusion about how many BRZ's are going to be produced...I just got clarification on this important issue..this is from a General Manager that I know.. Hope this eliminates the low supply issue with some of you thinking on going to get a Scion...

"Just had an annual planning meeting today with the zone manager. The volume expectation is ~5500 year which is ~450 a month. If you saw 450/year somewhere its a typo. The allocation commitment we have been given for the first 6 months of production is consistent with the 450/month figure based on our total store volume. Every store has been given a commitment of at least one BRZ between May and Nov of 2012. There are well over 450 Subaru stores in the USA. We're a pretty small store and we've been allocated more than one. We probably wouldn't even be able to get near a BRZ if the total national availability was only going to be 37 or 38 per month. "