Clutched Supercharger Build, yes they do exist

[Cross]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Well, I am on the forum to learn. Don't think we are on the same page. Participating in a discussion with valid info doesn't seem to sit well with you but that is your issue to deal with.

Anyway, again, how was I misinformed?
What are the differences in the setup between the 1986 toyota SC vs 2003 MB SC other than the charger?
What were their reasons for going with the clutched type SC?
What are their reasons for not utilising the clutched setup anymore?
What are your reasons other than it's different? How is it feasible?
What do you mean by easily removed?
What do you mean by proven heavy use? I wasn't and never talked about the reliability of the clutched pulley setup. What are you actually proving?

Your just not going to stop are you? Is this one of those situations where you just cannot stop yourself?

I will address your questions and then for the last time I ask that you leave before I ask a Moderator to step in. Being interested and asking questions is one thing however you have really not been interested and started only doing so after being asked to stop repeatedly. Allow me to illustrate it for you.

Your First Post:

Originally Posted by s2d4

Funny that, every 4agze owner I know wish it didn't come with clutched pulleys...

Not entirely sure about going back to something toyota were doing in 1986.

Focusing on clutches and how you were not happy with me comparing them to the ones used on 1st Gen MR2's from 1986.

Next you seemed to back off, you said how you felt I pointed out the fact that in 20 years technology normally advances especially if a company like Mercedes is going to use something. You pointed out you felt fuel economy played a part and that you preferred different options. That is where it should have ended.

Originally Posted by s2d4

Yes, the sc unit is definitely different but the sc isn't the only problem. The clutched setup was mainly used for heat and eco management reasons. There are way better options out there already.

Anyway, good luck with your endeavours. This is just an opinion from myself as well as other people that do own a clutched sc setup.

However you obviously could not stop there could you? You came back to again bring up the Superchargers from 1986 and point out that back then they were not as effective and the clutches had issues. It was a suttle way to spread disinformation because you did not take the time to point out exactly what you were reffering to. You also again decided to let others know you felt there was a better way.

Originally Posted by s2d4

The old roots blowers would melt the coatings easily if always engaged. This along with economy was the main reason for the clutched setup due to the inefficient of the roots blower and the stupid placement of a tiny intercooler with limited air flow.

Not the case with the current offerings of sc kits though. Just because you can doesn't mean it's a good idea such as jumping off the train platform.

You also felt that just because something could be built didn't mean it should be built which is where you decided to make an analogy that basically said this idea was similar to jumping off a train platform because someone was an idiot.

This is where I asked you to stop, you obviously don't like the idea and you can't help but continue to try and troll a thread just because you disapprove of the idea. Yet this thread starts by citing not only has it been done but it became very popular and spawned many different kits once completed.

When you were asked to stop you tried to turn the conversation back on me claiming I was the one starting it in my own thread. However as seen above its quite clear where it started and what your goals were which at this point look very much like trolling.



Now let me take the time to once again address your questions, many of which can be answered by using Google so I will help you do such Google Searches.

Originally Posted by s2d4

Anyway, again, how was I misinformed?

Because you have made the direct assumption that the only uses for this application could be fuel economy, the lack of a good clutch system based off a personal opinion from the results of a 1986 setup on a Toyota MR2 and the main fact that you clearly have no interest beyond making comments equating this idea to jumping off a train platform because someone wouldn't have the common sense not to do so.

Originally Posted by s2d4

What are the differences in the setup between the 1986 toyota SC vs 2003 MB SC other than the charger?
What were their reasons for going with the clutched type SC?
What are their reasons for not utilising the clutched setup anymore?
What are your reasons other than it's different? How is it feasible?

This one a google search could have provided the answers for you but the truth here was you were not interested in the first place. You had already made up your mind based off information from 1986 and that's where you stopped. This is also known as having a closed mind. But as promised I will help you with that because its apparent your not able to do it for yourself.
First lets start with the obvious:
1st Gen MR2 Supercharger from 1986 era (1.6L Engine):


Mercedes 2003 (1.8L Engine) era Supercharger that we are using based off the Eaton M62 Roots Supercharger:


Now obviously the OEM system would need design changes not just to accommodate the increased engine size but also the fact that automotive technology and tuning had advanced since 1986 to allow the OEM to increase efficiency and power output in general.

Now lets address the clutch specifically as with these model's being so different and OEM information harder to come across I have provided the above pictures of the two and I will show you the clutch used on this supercharger that has seen extensive testing on other platforms with no issues (as has also been mentioned quite a few times). If you would like it to go further Google and a good amount of time might get you the direct information but frankly the fact that these systems have been used so often on Mazda 2.5L V6's and are not spawning threads constantly of failure I think makes it quite clear. But I will look into finding the model numbers for each and tracking down the Manufacture specs to outline advancements made because apparently this is not something you want to do for yourself.

C230 Clutch:


Now lets address why Mercedes choose to move on, I don't have a direct answer I have never been a part of the Mercedes company but I would assume they not only continue the C Series but continue to move along technically to new options. Some move to Turbo's while others use Superchargers (this is across all manufacturers). The point here is not why they did it as that was never important to this thread its your attempt to try and grasp for an issue that really is not important nor does it have a place in this thread. If you would like to argue the merits of a Supercharger vs a Turbo setup there are MANY places to do that besides a thread that is specific to the building of a kit for a specific Supercharger.

If you feel that the fact they changed the model means that this system is not good enough for you then I congratulate you as once again it will show you have no interest in this kit and have only jumped in to cause a disruption of something you have stated many times you don't agree with. You just can't seem to stop doing so and it appears to be related to trolling or an online ego.

Originally Posted by s2d4

What are your reasons other than it's different? How is it feasible?

Now this question has been addressed, in fact more than once but apparently you were not interested in reading that information. Luckily I can quote it for you.

Originally Posted by Cross

As for the why... well I like strange setups and this Supercharger has always provided that. I think this is the perfect setup for it.

Originally Posted by Cross

The Point of the Superchargering being clutched is because its different and yes its like an A/C unit when you are not using it it does not create a power loss.

This reply was even directly to you...

Originally Posted by Cross

On 1st Gen MR2's right because the opinion on the V6 Mazda's was completely different.

Either way thanks and I agree there are better way's but with my prior experience with these and the fact I want something easy to install and remove this is the best self contained way to really not have to change most any of my setup besides the air intake. All the other modifications can stay in place.

So since I have said it three times and it has not stuck your only argument here is that you feel its pointless to do as there are better ways. I have said more than once this is not being made to be the best but to be unique and fun while allowing easy install and use. It will require modification but the goal is to make that as easy to remove as possible and give a stealth setup.

Originally Posted by Cross

Will this be the most powerful kit, no.
Will this be a kit that many may like to just leave on, yes.

My goals are to have that fun power at the flip of a switch that just makes people scratch their heads and this setup always provides that.

Moving along to your last two questions:

Originally Posted by s2d4

What do you mean by easily removed?

For what does easily removed mean I am not sure how else to answer this as it is obivous what I am implying so I have come up with this for an answer:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/easy
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/remove

Originally Posted by s2d4

What do you mean by proven heavy use? I wasn't and never talked about the reliability of the clutched pulley setup. What are you actually proving?

Actually you did talk about the clutch setup on MR2's how others wished they did not come that way on MR2's and how they melted easily on the MR2's. You even did so with sarcasm in your very first post showing how much you did not have an interest in this style system but could not stop yourself from attempting to cause an issue in the thread.

Originally Posted by s2d4

Funny that, every 4agze owner I know wish it didn't come with clutched pulleys...

Not entirely sure about going back to something toyota were doing in 1986.

Originally Posted by s2d4

As for the actuating system, it's mainly sudden throttle position change. The old roots blowers would melt the coatings easily if always engaged. This along with economy was the main reason for the clutched setup due to the inefficient of the roots blower and the stupid placement of a tiny intercooler with limited air flow.

Not the case with the current offerings of sc kits though. Just because you can doesn't mean it's a good idea such as jumping off the train platform.

Twice you had to resort to snide remarks because you could not help yourself from posting in a thread you did not agree with and could not walk away from even though you were asked repeatedly to do so. You even implied you wanted to do so but you just could not bring yourself to do it.

So now that I have written this long post will you just say "TLDR" or continue further semantics or maybe just maybe move along and stop attempting to create issues just because you don't agree with the method being used. As pointed out you have many different options I encourage you to move along to those options and get the satisfaction you need for the kit that meets your needs.

Thanks again!

Now back to the build, this week the main focus is on solving the mounting so that I can figure out just how I will need to modify my header setup or make my own. Either way that's what I hope to accomplish this week probably mostly over the weekend as I will be busy with a new server cut over at work.


----Side Note----
I knew I had run into you somewhere else, now I remember. You disagreed with my thoughts to Shiv with regards to updates stating that I must be a pain in the ass to deal with and knew nothing of software development even though I am the System Admin for a Software Development Company. This explains why its just continuing, it is an ego issue and you just cannot stop. You did not like my reply to you in that thread so you decided to cause a disruption here.

[Malt]

Sadly Cross, I've noticed a trend on these forums where people tend to resort to general troll type behavior on a consistent basis. It seems the only way to get it through to these individuals that rude behavior shouldn't be tolerated is to resort to the moderators (that is what they are for right?).

Now on topic, I'm finding your ideas interesting and I'm looking forward to seeing how it progresses.

[asher187]

Not sure if I met you at the Bash Cross, I was there too!

When are you going to start putting together a parts list?

[Cross]

Originally Posted by asher187

Not sure if I met you at the Bash Cross, I was there too!

When are you going to start putting together a parts list?

I think we needed name tags lol, I only knew those who came up from Tucson and even then I am horrible with names. I was all the way at the end next to that concrete ramada where VooDoo/KSport had their display. Did you come up with us? I tried my best to remember everyone's names but it takes me time I am getting older what can I say lol. Join us this Friday probably Saturday to if you want to hang out and work on vehicles. (Although this weekend may be devoted to putting the Vette's new 408 back in)

Parts list will probably start next week after we see about mounting and start getting the cad drawing together to build the prototype mount.

[uspspro]

There is a reason that so many of those Mercedes SC's show up on ebay ... they tend to be unreliable.

One of my friends swapped his 4agze clutched SC for the Mercedes unit... 11 years ago. It was initially just an idea I kicked around... it sounded like a good plan. More efficient SC, still clutched like OEM, relatively compatible fitment wise to the original SC mounting.

He ended up doing it.... and killed two of those SCs in short order.

After some more research, it seems there are a lot of SC failures on the C230 Kompressor.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by uspspro

There is a reason that so many of those Mercedes SC's show up on ebay ... they suck.

One of my friends swapped his 4agze clutched SC for the Mercedes unit... 11 years ago. It was initially just an idea I kicked around... it sounded like a good plan. More efficient SC, still clutched like OEM, relatively compatible fitment wise to the original SC mounting.

He ended up killing two of those SCs in short order.

As I said the only issues we ran into were when the Clutch was not shimmed correctly. You can see the shims in the picture I posted of the clutch they are small easy to loose and when not properly setup will cause issues just like say slipping the clutch on your manual transmission vehicle.

I also bought a used one as I said because I can shim them and I needed one for Mock up that would not upset me if it got damaged.
I buy rebuilt ones from another company out of California and they require a core so this solves that problem meaning I will only loose 200 out of the 430 I spent which is acceptable for a mock up unit should it be bad.

Either way sorry to hear your friends MR2 had issues. Also I noticed it said you had an MR-S Swapped V6 3.5L The ... crap I am forgetting V6 that became popular... either way if I am remembering correctly that should have been fun. I owned quite a few second Gen MR2's including one we did a 1MZ 3.0L V6 swap in, not nearly as fun as the 3.5L swap that ended up happening later on but fun none the less.

[uspspro]

Originally Posted by Cross

Either way sorry to hear your friends MR2 had issues. Also I noticed it said you had an MR-S Swapped V6 3.5L The ... crap I am forgetting V6 that became popular... either way if I am remembering correctly that should have been fun. I owned quite a few second Gen MR2's including one we did a 1MZ 3.0L V6 swap in, not nearly as fun as the 3.5L swap that ended up happening later on but fun none the less.

Shame on me for not reading the whole thread.

My friend's install was actually in an AE86, it sounded pretty crazy until the SC failed!

Yeah, I swapped the 2GRFE into my MR-S. It was an insane car.. awesome sound, torque and driveability. It made 271 rwhp and a table flat torque curve, with 3 cats, stock motor... just had a basic intake and cat back exhaust. I sold the car to buy the BRZ.

I used to have a built 1zz with a Rotrex C30-94 that made 292 rwhp (on CA 91 octane) in the same car prior to the V6 swap... but the V6 made way more power and torque at every RPM until the V6 hit redline at 6,700 rpm. The Rotrex setup really screamed the last 2000 rpm to redline, but the V6 was the faster car. Both setups had amazing throttle response, but the V6 throttle response was unreal. The 2GR is a really underrated motor.

Anyway, back to the topic...

Personally, I just think these SCs are small and outdated tech. Glad the reliability concerns are not a big deal though.

[Cross]

It certainly is different and they are a little older. Oddly enough I happened to have a chance at a Vortech kit but the sad part of that is obviously two SC's would be overkill. I find myself torn between the two.

I thought it was the 2GR but then I second guessed myself, you are right that is an underrated motor and does so well in an MR2 although I liked the 2nd gens but then I spent so much time with them how could I not lol.

I was not aware the AE86 came SC'd but then I must admit it was not a car I was really interested... I know horrible to admit on this site with the heritage but it is the truth. I would bet it was a ton of fun I am just sorry to hear you had problems, we abused these little things and they would just take it... but then I was in my very early 20's so doing stupid things was not all that uncommon.... *laugh*
I guess I miss that fun, the looks on people's faces when it turned on was always one of confusion and for some reason I never forgot that.

[Team STILLEN]

[s2d4]

Bleh, so much drama. What a way to turn a set of questions fostering a technical discussion into "days of our lives"

Originally Posted by Cross

Actually you did talk about the clutch setup on MR2's how others wished they did not come that way on MR2's and how they melted easily on the MR2's.

I was referring to the teflon coatings on the lobes, not the clutched pulley.
We wish it didn't come that way because we know what modern day SC could do for us.

Most of what I'd posted were about the reasons for the implementations of the clutched pulley. If the reasons no longer exist, there are better options, proven on Mazda V6, keep the charger engaged via a switch and being different means it satisfy your feasibility requirements, it doesn't matter if the cost/benefit ratio makes no sense to some unknown person on the internet.

Note: AE86 never came with the 4agze.
As for the remark about system admin at a software company, I am an engineer that design/writes hardware/software for Stackers/Reclaimers/Car Dumpers/Shiploaders/Crushers.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Bleh, so much drama. What a way to turn a set of questions fostering a technical discussion into "days of our lives"


I was referring to the teflon coatings on the lobes, not the clutched pulley.
We wish it didn't come that way because we know what modern day SC could do for us.

Most of what I'd posted were about the reasons for the implementations of the clutched pulley. If the reasons no longer exist, there are better options, proven on Mazda V6, keep the charger engaged via a switch and being different means it satisfy your feasibility requirements, it doesn't matter if the cost/benefit ratio makes no sense to some unknown person on the internet.

Note: AE86 never came with the 4agze.
As for the remark about system admin at a software company, I am an engineer that design/writes hardware/software for Stackers/Reclaimers/Car Dumpers/Shiploaders/Crushers.

I actually thought you had finally stopped but alas I was wrong so I have reported your post.

As for the drama perhaps if you didn't attempt to stir it up so often you wouldn't find yourself in so much of it. But of course that was never what you were concerned with.

I am sorry everyone that even quotes from this very thread and pictures were not enough. Hopefully a moderator can put an end to this disruption.


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[ichitaka05]

Both of you chill, this is a warning.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Both of you chill, this is a warning.

Cheers, I am actually very chilled, you won't see any emotionally driven dribbles from me.

[Team STILLEN]

I find this thread interesting (drama excluded). The idea of being able to get the original fuel economy when wanted and power at any time is very cool. Will it be reliable and safe? Guess we will wait and see. I have seen a lot of the C230 Kompressor's out there with a lot if miles and no failed blower so I believe that it can be reliable.

As far as making and fitting the kit goes; maybe you could get the manifold used by innovate and use an adapter plate?


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