Driving Technique - Track Out

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Question for the track junkies. @CSG Mike

Is it a hard and fast rule to always use the full track out width when exiting a corner?

No, not necessarily, as noted by others for various and sundry reasons. But, as a general rule negotiating a simple corner followed by a straight, then … yes.

Why?

Because then you will be describing the widest possible arc -- the longest radius -- through the corner, which will permit the greatest possible speed. When God created racetracks he wanted us to use all of the available road (with a few puzzles thrown in).


Think "Indy"; it's just four 90 degree corners, but taken at far higher speeds than when driving around the block downtown. Why? Because the radius of each corner at Indy is bigger than the corners downtown. And in an Indy car, they get through those four corners on the wrong side of 200 mph.

Exiting the left hairpin at the end of the back straight at SP Shenandoah, I can ease into WOT without the car pushing wide and needing the full track-out width. I usually end up about 3 feet inside the curbing at exit. My instructor mentioned that a few times and said the car should be all the way over when tracking out, but I'm not sure it's necessary if the car isn't pushing wide.

Your words suggest that you're thinking in terms of "driving" the car out to the track edge, steering it out there. I think you misunderstand.


The maximum possible cornering speed for your car will CARRY the car out to the track edge; you're just a passenger once having committed the car at speed. If the car is not carrying you out there, and you say it is not, then, to borrow from the Indy old timers: "You ain't goin' fast enough, boy!"


You aren't steering the car out there so much as momentum is CARRYING the car out there. These higher speeds do not necessarily lead to scary oversteer if you're smooth with your inputs, especially the throttle. Build up your speed more progressively, rather than lurching out onto the straight with too much throttle and suffering power oversteer.


The trick is setting it all in motion so that the car goes j-u-s-t where you want it to, and no further. Easier said than done.


The higher the speeds, the harder it gets.


There's a reason some guys are paid $30+ million dollars to do that … and the rest of us just watch.

I also like leaving a little space in the event I need to countersteer and don't want to drop two wheels.

Good thinking.


Drive within your limits and allow some margin for safety. You can probably push harder and remain safe, but everyone must find his own comfort level. You're not a professional and you're unlikely to ever become one, any more than any of the rest of us.


So, focus on having fun and staying safe. Try not to be lured into driving beyond your abilities and comfort zone in an effort to "beat" others. Just work on beating your own best time. And even then, be careful. It's easy to get hurt out there.


Just because another driver can get through a turn "flat in fourth" doesn't mean you can. You don't want to learn that by paying with your life.



You're not up to pitching in the World Series, or quarterbacking in the Super Bowl, right? So, don't expect to do with a car, those things someone better than you can do. Motor racing is a SPORT requiring talent, and God most certainly did NOT create all men equal.


There are old drivers, and there are brave drivers; there are no old, brave drivers.


The Brit who used to own the popular Nurburgring website discouraged people from using a stopwatch when driving the 'Ring; he felt it prompted people to take inordinate risks, and people are regularly killed at the 'Ring, tourists like you and me who may be pushing too hard trying to beat the clock and better out time. Something to think about.


A reporter for Time magazine many years ago titled an article about Jimmy Clark, "130 and six." One hundred thirty miles per hour and six inches at his trackout point. Jimmy was describing what he strove for on a given curve at the Spa, Belgium open-road circuit. Clark's limits were in an altogether different realm than those of lesser mortals. (I was there all those years ago watching Jimmy and many before him. They were the best of times and they were the worst of times… Clark hated Spa, despite excelling on that very high speed circuit.)

The only times I've tracked out that wide in that corner were when I carried too much speed, missed my intended apex, and pushed out wide.

Maybe try the old "In slow, out fast" approach?

Thoughts? Or maybe it means I can get on the throttle/unwind even earlier?

Now you're on the right track. (Forgive me; I couldn't resist. )

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Lots of good points brought up but yes there are times when track out isn't necessary or is slower but those are complicated to discuss unless you have intimate track knowledge.

I know Shenandoah and its not paved like a traditional track, it's paved like a road so thers is a crown in the middle. As you cross the crown the car gets loose exiting turn 20 and I suspect that's what makes you uneasy tracking out. From my experience to maximize your lap time there you need to track out as it leads you into another straight.

There are other areas of that track where you need to obay the camber and not track out by hugging the inside like at "hook." A traditional line at Shenandoah is not the fast line there and it looks all goofy on video so I would imagine its hard for an instructor there.

Going fast at that track is sketchy and involves a ton of sudden oversteer due to the crown I mentioned. So drive within your car control capabilities but I suspect your instructor senses you're "pinching" your turn so he wants you to undwind the wheel more so you don't induce oversteer as you get more confident exiting 20.

Thanks Phil. You're absolutely right on the crown point - that was something I had noticed, but hadn't consciously thought of until now. The off-camber crown starts roughly where I would begin adding power in 20, so the thought of oversteer was always there as I exited. I suspect the answer is as simple as unwinding the wheel even faster after hitting the apex, which I'll try next time I'm out there.

You're also right about the hook. I noticed the car will push very wide there if you don't factor in crown. Very insightful points!

Originally Posted by Porsche

Your words suggest that you're thinking in terms of "driving" the car out to the track edge, steering it out there. I think you misunderstand.

The maximum possible cornering speed for your car will CARRY the car out to the track edge; you're just a passenger once having committed the car at speed. If the car is not carrying you out there, and you say it is not, then, to borrow from the Indy old timers: "You ain't goin' fast enough, boy!"

You aren't steering the car out there so much as momentum is CARRYING the car out there. These higher speeds do not necessarily lead to scary oversteer if you're smooth with your inputs, especially the throttle. Build up your speed more progressively, rather than lurching out onto the straight with too much throttle and suffering power oversteer.

Yep I think you nailed it. I couldn't figure out why I would track out that far, but as everyone pointed out, if I rolled onto the throttle earlier after clipping the apex, that would automoatically necessitate a line that tracks out further.

Originally Posted by Porsche

The trick is setting it all in motion so that the car goes j-u-s-t where you want it to, and no further. Easier said than done.

The higher the speeds, the harder it gets.

Yeah by the second day, I was able to do that through most sections of the course in my underpowered FR-S, other than in turn 20. The speed point is well-taken though. With the easy balance and lack of power in the FR-S, I almost wonder if this car is too easy to drive. I'm sure with a higher powered RWD car, things become much more difficult FAST.

Originally Posted by Porsche

Drive within your limits and allow some margin for safety. You can probably push harder and remain safe, but everyone must find his own comfort level. You're not a professional and you're unlikely to ever become one, any more than any of the rest of us.

So, focus on having fun and staying safe. Try not to be lured into driving beyond your abilities and comfort zone in an effort to "beat" others. Just work on beating your own best time. And even then, be careful. It's easy to get hurt out there.

Just because another driver can get through a turn "flat in fourth" doesn't mean you can. You don't want to learn that by paying with your life.

Thanks, good advice. That reminds me of when I did a ride-along with my instructor and noticed he didn't brake at all entering turn 17. So of course I had to try that for myself in my next session and flew into turn 17 WAY too hot. I saved it, but my instructor and I certainly had a thrill (and good laughs about it afterwards).

Originally Posted by Porsche

Now you're on the right track. (Forgive me; I couldn't resist. )

Corny lol. Thanks for the comments!

[Element Tuning]

I found an old video of me at Shenandoah circuit. Sorry for the horrible quality but you will see how unconventional the fast line is there but this is what separates the really fast guys, the ability to find the grip on a track and defy conventional lines.

You'll see I make an aggressive steering input at 20 and just about loop it. Keep track right a little longer than I did That mistake lost me the overall win by 1/10th or so from what I remember.

[ame]http://youtu.be/W8Kdj2m2Mq4[/ame]

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

I found an old video of me at Shenandoah circuit. Sorry for the horrible quality but you will see how unconventional the fast line is there but this is what separates the really fast guys, the ability to find the grip on a track and defy conventional lines.

You'll see I make an aggressive steering input at 20 and just about loop it. Keep track right a little longer than I did That mistake lost me the overall win by 1/10th or so from what I remember.

Awesome video, brings back warm fuzzy feelings of driving on that course. We have similar lines, but a couple of things stand out.

1) Your car has a lot more oversteer and it looks like you basically swung your rear around for half of turn 20. Nice!

2) In the hammer (turn 5), you turn in much earlier than me and manage to hug the inside line, whereas I hold the outside line longer, turn in for a later apex, then track out. [For those looking at the course map, neither of us are running the kink in turn 5].

3) In the hook (turns 6 & 7), you somehow manage to hug the inside line (I'm assuming due to the crown), whereas I stay wide a bit longer, cut to mid-track, then clip the apex of 8 at exit. With you, it's almost as if you apex turn 6 then hold it inside the whole way through. Your car must have very minimal understeer to carry that line! It's unconventional as you said, but I actually really like your line here. I think I can pull off that tighter line with less entry speed and less "maintenance throttle".

4) I enter the karussel about 3 feet to the right of you. One of the instructors mentioned it was easier on the car that way?

5) Watching your video reminds me I like the hot-pit configuration for that track better, with turns 1, 2, 21, and 22, since that lets you run the full cave esses (which I love in the FR-S).

6) That car looks like a lot of fun to drive. Is that an STI setup to oversteer? Either way, it's FAST.

[Element Tuning]

1) Yes I had just installed a new rear diff and it was like driving a drift car. LOL!
2) Sometimes it's hard to compare a high powered car to a low powered car but in this case I had to obey the camber of the track and stay inside the crown for the most traction.
3) It has been mentioned prior but take the shortest distance here and obey the camber of the track. Taking the wide line there with all the camber drop off is probably slower even in a momentum car.
4) That's because we had to stay way track left over the jump to catch the least amount of air.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=r0vUss87aNU"]Element tuning STi goes airborn - YouTube[/ame]

In your car the line the instructor gave is probably best.

6) It was that day, Ha ha.

[SpeedLab]

While not an twin, heres the time attack car with a lot of grip. When at shenandoah, i take turn 10 as a throw-away. Wherever you end up at the end of the turn doesn't matter, you need to be at the left coming into old ram.. however you can best achieve that usually depends how much grip you have.

I've never seen a club run the course through the hot pits, which would be a completely different scenario. I generally take a different line through 10 each time. My favorite is to hug the inside all the way around (no apex, throw away) to get the power down into the short straight as fast as possible while staying on the left for the cave esses.

Maybe these videos will help? No idea. I'm all over the track in both of these. Shenandoah is pretty challenging for a car making boost at 4k.

Slow Warmup -
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdhYkoKBToM&feature=c4-overview&list=UUqo4f3rErwM4k5jGrZaQvzQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdhYkoKBToM&feature=c4-overview&list=UUqo4f3rErwM4k5jGrZaQvzQ[/ame]

Having fun with a student in the car -
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzzTbfDUvr4&feature=c4-overview&list=UUqo4f3rErwM4k5jGrZaQvzQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzzTbfDUvr4&feature=c4-overview&list=UUqo4f3rErwM4k5jGrZaQvzQ[/ame]

[ja1217]

[ame]http://youtu.be/NTgvKn2zVeg[/ame]

Don't know if this will help or not, but here is video of my best lap @ Shenandoah from last weekend. I think I followed most of Element Tuning's advice. I didn't have too many problems with oversteer in turn 20, especially after I let it track out earlier. I had more issues with turns 5 and 11 balancing throttle and steering based on how much grip was available as I went from one side of the pavement crown to the other.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by ja1217

Don't know if this will help or not, but here is video of my best lap @ Shenandoah from last weekend. I think I followed most of Element Tuning's advice. I didn't have too many problems with oversteer in turn 20, especially after I let it track out earlier. I had more issues with turns 5 and 11 balancing throttle and steering based on how much grip was available as I went from one side of the pavement crown to the other.

This was great, thanks for posting! We have very similar lines, even in T20. Almost felt like I was watching myself drive. The main difference is in the Hook where it looks like you're following Element Tuning's "road crown" line, which I want to try next time I'm out there.

Re. oversteer, I agree. I quickly learned to countersteer and track-out in T11 every lap like clockwork. I didn't have any issues with oversteer in T5 though.

I also downshifted into 2nd gear for T11 and in the Corkscrew. In 3rd, it felt like the engine bogged too much. I think you're also on stickier tires and aftermarket coilovers, so you're probably up a few mph in those corners, which might negate the need to downshift.

Very interesting comparing laps in our cars! I need to buy a GoPro.

[ja1217]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

This was great, thanks for posting! We have very similar lines, even in T20. Almost felt like I was watching myself drive. The main difference is in the Hook where it looks like you're following Element Tuning's "road crown" line, which I want to try next time I'm out there.

Re. oversteer, I agree. I quickly learned to countersteer and fully track-out in T11 every lap like clockwork. I didn't have any issues with oversteer in T5 though.

I also downshifted into 2nd gear for T11 and in the Corkscrew. In 3rd, it felt like the engine bogged too much. I think you're also on stickier tires and aftermarket coilovers, so you're probably up a few mph in those corners, which might negate the need to downshift.

Very interesting comparing laps in our cars! I need to buy a GoPro.

GoPro is definitely great for looking at how to improve times. It was my first time at Shenandoah, so I wasn't getting to crazy trying to get the fastest lap, but downshifting into 2nd for Corkskcrew is something I wanted to try after watching my videos. Also wanted to see if I could carry 3rd longer and get away with shifting into 4th while turning in Big Bend (19), but didn't want to push my luck (4 pretty serious wrecks that weekend). Could probably pick up 5-10mph down the straight that way though.

On turn 11, I think staying in 3rd would be quicker (for me at least), but getting a good entry into that turn is difficult. There is a very annoying dip in the braking zone that would kick on the ABS when I tried to brake really late for that turn, which would then cause me to go too deep. I ended up having to break earlier than I really wanted to for that turn, but I don't think my RPM's dipped below 4k, so I don't think shifting down to 2nd would have gotten me too much there.

I'm surprised you weren't having much trouble with oversteer on turn 5. Then again maybe I was just too throttle happy. For example:

My tires are Dunlop ZII's, nothing crazy, but the Ohlins suspension is really nice until I look at my bank account.

P.S. - Guess I'll be seeing you at the CDC Autocross event this weekend.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by ja1217

GoPro is definitely great for looking at how to improve times. It was my first time at Shenandoah, so I wasn't getting to crazy trying to get the fastest lap, but downshifting into 2nd for Corkskcrew is something I wanted to try after watching my videos. Also wanted to see if I could carry 3rd longer and get away with shifting into 4th while turning in Big Bend (19), but didn't want to push my luck (4 pretty serious wrecks that weekend). Could probably pick up 5-10mph down the straight that way though.

On turn 11, I think staying in 3rd would be quicker (for me at least), but getting a good entry into that turn is difficult. There is a very annoying dip in the braking zone that would kick on the ABS when I tried to brake really late for that turn, which would then cause me to go too deep. I ended up having to break earlier than I really wanted to for that turn, but I don't think my RPM's dipped below 4k, so I don't think shifting down to 2nd would have gotten me too much there.

I'm surprised you weren't having much trouble with oversteer on turn 5. Then again maybe I was just too throttle happy. For example:

My tires are Dunlop ZII's, nothing crazy, but the Ohlins suspension is really nice until I look at my bank account.

P.S. - Guess I'll be seeing you at the CDC Autocross event this weekend.

Wow yeah I wasn't getting oversteer like that in T5. If anything, I had slight understeer mid-corner, but seeing your video makes me wonder if I could get on the power even earlier there. Another difference is we ran a different configuration with the hot pit and full cave esses. I could feel my front tires getting hot/greasy by T5.

And yep definitely looking forward to autocross this weekend. See you there!