100% DI Failure with Nurburgring rentals

[Muskokan]

OH SNAP, tune pun hehe ^

But I'm on the side of no tune, I have to assume subaru engineers had reliability in mind when designing this thing. And whoever gets a new car and doesnt think twice about voiding the warranty, has to much damn money.

[stugray]

"But I'm on the side of no tune, I have to assume subaru engineers had reliability in mind when designing this thing."

But what about these two facts:
1 - The engine was not designed solely by Subaru Engineers but also Toyota engineers

2 - Toyota has admitted that there is a problem and has addressed it by providing a tune that mitigates the DI failure issue while Subaru has NOT provided that same mitigation because they refuse to admit the problem and provide the very same tune that Toyoa provides.

[thill]

Originally Posted by stugray

"But I'm on the side of no tune, I have to assume subaru engineers had reliability in mind when designing this thing."

But what about these two facts:
1 - The engine was not designed solely by Subaru Engineers but also Toyota engineers

2 - Toyota has admitted that there is a problem and has addressed it by providing a tune that mitigates the DI failure issue while Subaru has NOT provided that same mitigation because they refuse to admit the problem and provide the very same tune that Toyoa provides.

That is actually not true at all. If you car was built sometime after December 2013 (whether it be Subaru or Toyota) you should have the newest calibration file that fixes the DI issue.

You can't take your car to Toyota or Subaru in the US right now and get the latest calibration file if you are on the previous calibration file because the dealer has no way to upgrade to it since the issue is not in their system.

This is not a Toyota vs Subaru thing, it is an FT86 thing.

[jjaisli]

Originally Posted by regal

There have been no reports of 01C calib DI failures, but again most spirited drivers are just flashing a quality tune that keeps the knock detector as silent as possible.

That's a VERY bold claim to make. Do you honestly believe that 'most' owners, whether they drive in a spirited manner or not, really alter the factory ECU settings? Not by a long shot. Don't use this forum as a basis.

Originally Posted by Mikem53

Bad advice telling people to give up their warranty for a aftermarket tune..
Why give up the warranty for a few extra ponies or for your opinion that it's somehow safer than the factory tune?
...
I would rather have my warranty intact than have some aftermarket tune claiming to be better yet offers no warranty and is not held liable..
I'm also still waiting for you to respond to your post earlier on about scion closing dealerships.. You always seem to disappear when asked to backup your statements..

I would have to agree. Having had a very bad experience with my old Audi A4, I'm extremely leery of making changes which could potentially void the warranty. Especially when one considers what could fall under the rather broad scope of altered ECU settings. When you're a lone, working class person trying to fight a huge multi national corporation that can afford to spend millions of dollars in legal fees, Magnuson-Moss means nothing. And I once found this out the hard way.

Originally Posted by regal

You didn't even read my last post. Read it again before you attack. Thanks.

I read it. And I agree with him. Although I recognize that there's more to your statement and argument, and that you two have a bit of history of philosophical disagreements. And it's also clear that those with early builds, who are not able to simply bring their cars to Scion or Subaru for a reflash, are sitting in a very unenviable position. And probably don't even realize it. And I think it's a joke that Toyota hasn't issued a world wide recall or TSB. It's been a known problem for long enough and they should at least acknowledge it, rather than pretending it doesn't exist.

That said, I have a Feb/2013 build date and assume I'm running ZA1JA01C, although I have not yet had this verified.

But one thing I have learned over the years, is that so called 'tuners' are a dime a dozen. And many of them don't have nearly as much insight as the factory team, despite your claims to the contrary. Indeed you can easily point your finger at this whole A01C/A00C situation as proof of the opposite. And in this case, I would agree. But in general terms, there is often a reason why the factory tunes cars the way they do. And in general terms, they usually know better. And either way, for most people, a car is a big financial investment and they tend to take the warranty into consideration. Or at least they should.

I think potentially, you're dolling out some dangerous advice in a rather off hand manner.

[Wepeel]

Originally Posted by stugray

2 - Toyota has admitted that there is a problem and has addressed it by providing a tune that mitigates the DI failure issue while Subaru has NOT provided that same mitigation because they refuse to admit the problem and provide the very same tune that Toyoa provides.

To be fair, Subaru and Toyota both offer the updated 01C calibrations on more recently manufactured cars. Subaru and Toyota do not offer relashes for 00C cars yet, except for in South Africa where Toyota has released a TSB for it.

Edit - already clarified above.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

Attack.. ? Whatever.. Just responding to your so called "advice" regarding tunes.. Since your posts always condemn the OEM somehow, along with the demise of the scion.. Or maybe you have taken on a new "tune" of your own..

Still didn't read my post. I only condemn the OEM's for not providing the 01C calibration for 2012 buyers, We 2012 buyers who drive the car in the power band (the <1%) have no choice but flash ourselves.

If you want to defend the OEMs for putting us in that situation then start a new post stating your case, would love to see the logic behind that.

As far as your demise of Scion, why are you asking me? Use google if you are concerned.

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by regal

This is 2013 not 1995, I don't think any mass produced car under $40k can claim that now days. Cars these days are tuned for emissions and mpg, not the track.

If you want to go to the track get a track tune. Not a street tune where they try to squeeze 10 extra hp. A track tune done right runs cooler, is much less detonation prone, and safer. It won't look as good on the dyno but it will be much more likely to hold up at the track, that's why its called a track tune.

This seems like an odd thing to say, especially given the fact that the FT86 has been marketed from the start as a sports car. It makes more sense to argue that this car is still "in development," and new owners are in the position of being field testers for the OEM.

My guess is that, if this car took four years to bring to market, somewhere around Year 2 the OEM realized that they had a car that was going to be full of bugs due to an impractical design. Instead of pulling the plug on the FT86, they did what the Japanese always do, i.e., they threw a bunch of engineers and a ton of tech at the car, hoping to "solve" the underlying problems. How did that go? Not so good.

A 2-liter car has the virtues of small size and greater simplicity. Toyota threw the simplicity out the window when they went with a DI/PI head. Which is pretty ironic, considering that we are talking about a car company that could design a simple 197 hp inline-4 in its sleep.

Sorry for repeating myself and for ranting. :happy0180:

[regal]

Originally Posted by Marrk

This seems like an odd thing to say, .:happy0180:

My point is simply that an modern OEM tune is not the sole product of engineering, there are outside constraints that weren't there in the early 90's. IME a companies emissions inspector has more say than an engineer developing a tune at an OEM today. You can find many former OEM engineers who chose to work with race teams on track tunes rather than deal with the crazy modern regulations OEMs are subjected to.

The hard part as we all agree is finding those experienced Subaru tuners, but they are finally starting to show interest in this platform.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by regal

There have been no reports of 01C calib DI failures, but again most spirited drivers are just flashing a quality tune that keeps the knock detector as silent as possible.

My opinion is a good tune is worthwhile, especially if you live in a hilly area and drive in the powerband. Finding a good local tuner with experience in Subaru's is difficult but worthwhile. Just don't confuse a canned 10hp tune with a quality track type tune.

Any leads on such providers or are all your sources local? If you don't feel like advertising I'd appreciate a PM. I'm just curious as it sounds like from what you're saying there's a provider for every county when all I see around are people advertising that 10hp gain.

[track junkie]

Originally Posted by Marrk

Toyota threw the simplicity out the window when they went with a DI/PI head. Which is pretty ironic, considering that we are talking about a car company that could design a simple 197 hp inline-4 in its sleep.

A DI/PI head isn't exactly new technology for Toyota, it was developed before 2006 for Lexus.
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/02/22/h...cadillac-3-6l/

My stock 2013 BRZ has zero issues after 8000 miles in four months.

[thill]

Originally Posted by Marrk

A 2-liter car has the virtues of small size and greater simplicity. Toyota threw the simplicity out the window when they went with a DI/PI head. Which is pretty ironic, considering that we are talking about a car company that could design a simple 197 hp inline-4 in its sleep.

Sorry for repeating myself and for ranting. :happy0180:

Well this was done mostly for emissions/MPG. CAFE standards will push car companies to squeeze the most of their car lineups including mass produced 2 seater sports coupes. This is why you will see cars like the Mustang, Camaro, Gencoupe, GTI, etc shed weight into the future and offer DI on all their cars.

[chanomatik]

Originally Posted by track junkie

A DI/PI head isn't exactly new technology for Toyota, it was developed before 2006 for Lexus.
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/02/22/h...cadillac-3-6l/

My stock 2013 BRZ has zero issues after 8000 miles in four months.

27k miles in 11 months and no engine issues!

[Marrk]

DI is widely used across OEMs, but not without problems. For example, carbon build-up on R8s is pissing off a lot of Audi owners. The PI was put on top of the DI in the FT86 to mitigate the problems with DI (as I understand it). This problem and this "solution" is much too complicated for a "simple" 2 liter four.

[Asinar]

Originally Posted by Marrk

DI is widely used across OEMs, but not without problems. For example, carbon build-up on R8s is pissing off a lot of Audi owners. The PI was put on top of the DI in the FT86 to mitigate the problems with DI (as I understand it). This problem and this "solution" is much too complicated for a "simple" 2 liter four.

It's a new technology that's going to take time to refine. I'm sure people were making similar complaints when carburetors were being replaced with fuel injection, but it would be hard to argue that modern EFI is not superior to carburetors on nearly every metric. I doubt anyone sane would seriously advocate stripping off the ECU's, eliminate variable timing, or slap on a carburetor to "simplify" the FA20.