Best handling car?

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Fwd can be made to oversteer quite easily despite the weight distribution. The mini is in fact quite balanced in this respect and will pull over 1.0 g on a skid pad, much more than the BRZ.

Sure it can be made to oversteer when you lift or trailbrake. But good luck using a little power-on oversteer to help adjust your line in a FWD car.

A skidpad is just one measurement of how well a car handles. The skidpad is a steady state test. The MINI comes stock with better tires so that figure is no great revelation. The BRZ hits 0.93g on it's "Prius" tires, and has been shown to hit 1.00g just by upgrading the tires and nothing else.

To say the MINI is the best handling car is foolish. It doesn't even handle as well as a DC5 Integra Type R. But that doesn't mean I'm calling it a poor handling car either.

[Razz]

Cayman
Elise
GTR
RX8
M3
BRZ/FRS
S2000
RX7
Evo X
WRX STI

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Sure it can be made to oversteer when you lift or trailbrake. But good luck using a little power-on oversteer to help adjust your line in a FWD car.

A skidpad is just one measurement of how well a car handles. The skidpad is a steady state test. The MINI comes stock with better tires so that figure is no great revelation. The BRZ hits 0.93g on it's "Prius" tires, and has been shown to hit 1.00g just by upgrading the tires and nothing else.

To say the MINI is the best handling car is foolish. It doesn't even handle as well as a DC5 Integra Type R. But that doesn't mean I'm calling it a poor handling car either.

I mean a fwd car isn't inherently an understeering car, like all road cars it's designed that way. All modern cars tuck in when you lift off due to weight transfer and suspension design.

A lot of nonsense is bandied about concerning understeer and oversteer.

Basically, oversteer is slow and, at the limit very dangerous.

Understeer is ALWAYS faster. Therefore, a fwd car can be as quick as a rwd car.

Only when torque output gets into the 300 lb ft range do you find fwd no longer able to keep up. Then the torque simply overwhelms the front contact patches.

A mini can be made to go more quickly than a rwd car with the same power. Period.

An integra is fwd, just btw. I'm pretty sure a JCW Mini will make any integra look pretty slow. Those Hondas are very old tech now.

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

They do say it's neutral. Of course it has the horrid ride of all Works models.

I drove a stock JCW and a JCW with all the JCW suspension upgrade bits...

The ride was certainly not "horrible" in any way. And the upgraded one handled fantastic of course.

Just couldn't get past the reliability and build quality issues

[EAGLE5]

Perhaps we drove different ones? I test drove a gen 1 Works. It was painful. Then Car and Driver and everyone else called the current gen awful. Sooo... you have low standards?

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

I drove a stock JCW and a JCW with all the JCW suspension upgrade bits...

The ride was certainly not "horrible" in any way. And the upgraded one handled fantastic of course.

Just couldn't get past the reliability and build quality issues

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

Perhaps we drove different ones? I test drove a gen 1 Works. It was painful. Then Car and Driver and everyone else called the current gen awful. Sooo... you have low standards?

One mans painful is another mans pleasure

[TRD_86]

Originally Posted by Razz

Cayman
Elise
GTR
RX8
M3
BRZ/FRS
S2000
RX7
Evo X
WRX STI

----
A great list ; can't think anything better. Is it in order ?

[Anaxilus]

MR2/S gets short shrift again. I guess its lack of power really hurts its handling huh??

Handles better than half the cars on the list at least, especially the 86.

As for the Mini, I've driven them a few times from Gen 1 onward. Always felt pretty shit to me handling wise compared to the MR. Too heavy and unresponsive for what it is in relative comparison. Always makes me laugh when a Mini owner thinks they are going to shake me through a corner. Good luck w/ that. For responsiveness, the Mini feels closer to the 86 chassis than the MR.

[EAGLE5]

Understeer versus oversteer depends on the corner I suppose, but nobody wants a lot of understeer.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

Understeer versus oversteer depends on the corner I suppose, but nobody wants a lot of understeer.

The real distinction between (or among for that matter) awd fwd and rwd is the effect of excess power.

An understeering car is faster than an oversteering car.

If the engine torque cannot overcome drive wheel tire grip then fwd is likely to be quickest.

If engine torque can overcome drive wheel tire grip the awd will always be quickest.

Awd will ALWAYS understeer initially under excess power because the rear drive wheels will be pushing the front drive wheels sideways as they are turned into corner. Awd and fwd can be induced to oversteer by application of a rear brake.

It is also very difficult to engineer a quick awd car that can also be made to oversteer under power.

Rwd is odd. It is everybody's favourite but it is inferior to awd and fwd technically. It is quicker than fwd only when engine torque would overwhelm the front drive wheels. Awd is always banned from racing categories when rwd cars are desired for entertainment value.

While it may feel fast to oversteer a rwd car it just isn't. It's all for show. Any oversteer wastes forward drive in a rwd car. In fwd and awd drifting a tad does not waste forward drive.

All the fastest forms of road racing use rwd and ban awd.

[Anaxilus]

It's not just torque/power on the front wheels you have to worry about, but brakes too and this is where drivetrain layout play into weight distribution and tire wear/brake fade as well.
_______

Even the fastest AWD cars are never biased toward the front. Saying FWD is technically superior for going fast is a gross oversimplification of how a car gets from A>B.

[EAGLE5]

I think arguments about what individual aspect of design is best to be silly. It's like arguing RISC versus CISC. Theoretically RISC is faster, but the fab matters way more than the instruction set. You just cannot isolate variables.

Race car design is about being fastest within the rules and budgets. Race rules are all about limiting costs, adding safety, making fun races, and gaining sponsorships. AWD adds complexity and cost. I'm not sure how massive downforce and AWD interact.

But I still think the Mini is crap. My four days in a Cooper S were more than enough for me. I'd rather have a Fiat Panda.

Originally Posted by Suberman

The real distinction between (or among for that matter) awd fwd and rwd is the effect of excess power.

An understeering car is faster than an oversteering car.

If the engine torque cannot overcome drive wheel tire grip then fwd is likely to be quickest.

If engine torque can overcome drive wheel tire grip the awd will always be quickest.

Awd will ALWAYS understeer initially under excess power because the rear drive wheels will be pushing the front drive wheels sideways as they are turned into corner. Awd and fwd can be induced to oversteer by application of a rear brake.

It is also very difficult to engineer a quick awd car that can also be made to oversteer under power.

Rwd is odd. It is everybody's favourite but it is inferior to awd and fwd technically. It is quicker than fwd only when engine torque would overwhelm the front drive wheels. Awd is always banned from racing categories when rwd cars are desired for entertainment value.

While it may feel fast to oversteer a rwd car it just isn't. It's all for show. Any oversteer wastes forward drive in a rwd car. In fwd and awd drifting a tad does not waste forward drive.

All the fastest forms of road racing use rwd and ban awd.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Suberman

An understeering car is faster than an oversteering car.

.

Until the understeer runs you right off the road or leans you up on two wheels. Then you wreck

I've owned a FWD car with a double wishbone suspension koni shock/springs/ sway bar. Grippy summer tires. At its limit on a turn all four wheels would gradually loose grip, perfectly neutral. Took a ton of work to get the car to that level and it was just a B18 engine so not power house.

The FRS is obviously faster in a straight line and right out of the box is nearly as good handling, but its not perfectly neutral yet. Its silly the way they set the car up to oversteer and be unsprung up front, why not just make a neutral car ?

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by regal

The FRS is obviously faster in a straight line and right out of the box is nearly as good handling, but its not perfectly neutral yet. Its silly the way they set the car up to oversteer and be unsprung up front, why not just make a neutral car ?

Are you still on stock tires? I remember trying to autocross on stock tires and the tail coming around everywhere under power.

But it's a different story when you change tires. On decent summer performance tires, with just maintenance throttle, the FR-S will understeer slightly. But it's very close to being neutral. You can transition it to oversteer with moderate throttle or lift.

Personally I think the FR-S suspension was setup from the factory with mild to aggressive (ultra high, max, extreme) performance street tires in mind. Ditching the stock Prius tires would probably make you very happy.