Sprintex or Vortech, which setup has more potential?

[tbssowner]

so was there a consensus in this thread?

Personally I think a roots/twin screw definately has potential and would help with the lack of torque on these tiny motors. There is something to be said on having instant tq just above idle to redline. These types of blowers even with liquid to air charge coolers have to fight heat soak, you will need to run meth or secondary injectors to really make power. The centri blowers are definately a viable option but do have the downside of make power progressively and not reaching full boost until redline. The idea that you could bleed off boost to keep peak tq down low all the way to redline sounds good in theory but your IAT's will be through the roof. I am leaning towards the vortech setup as there is more support, documentation, and they are stateside. I really think either of these setups come down to how you like you power delivery and what option fits your goals.

Now if you are talking about really making power then I think both of these setups will fall short. They will not be able to make 400-500 whp while staying in the ideal compressor range, you may be able to get by running a shit ton of meth, e85 or c16, maybe nitrous, but in the end you will need a bigger compressor. In the LS world the roots style blowers are usually good up to about 600-800 range after that people either do some crazy blower fab work, go with a large centri blower, or go turbo with a 100mm compressor.

[phloozy]

Originally Posted by tbssowner

so was there a consensus in this thread?

Personally I think a roots/twin screw definately has potential and would help with the lack of torque on these tiny motors. There is something to be said on having instant tq just above idle to redline. These types of blowers even with liquid to air charge coolers have to fight heat soak, you will need to run meth or secondary injectors to really make power. The centri blowers are definately a viable option but do have the downside of make power progressively and not reaching full boost until redline. The idea that you could bleed off boost to keep peak tq down low all the way to redline sounds good in theory but your IAT's will be through the roof. I am leaning towards the vortech setup as there is more support, documentation, and they are stateside. I really think either of these setups come down to how you like you power delivery and what option fits your goals.

Now if you are talking about really making power then I think both of these setups will fall short. They will not be able to make 400-500 whp while staying in the ideal compressor range, you may be able to get by running a shit ton of meth, e85 or c16, maybe nitrous, but in the end you will need a bigger compressor. In the LS world the roots style blowers are usually good up to about 600-800 range after that people either do some crazy blower fab work, go with a large centri blower, or go turbo with a 100mm compressor.

The reason there is no consensus is because people have different ideas on what they want and all the FI systems seems pretty good right now. To me it was innovate vs turbo and that was because I was torn between simplicity/price vs power/boooooooost. The only reason I didnt look at vortech was because for what it is it was honestly out of my price range. If I was going to spend that much and wanted 300+ whp I would go turbo. If my goal was ~250 whp I would cut the cost and go innovate.

These are my opinions based on my financial situation and trusting my tuner that the innovate kit was a safe and reliable option for a daily driver. The vortech looks likes a more complete kit so if you can afford it and are set to go the SC route that may be the best option, thus no consensus.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by regal

There is a difference between better and useless. The MAF sensor is not useless with the Innovate kit, that is pure nonsense.

You can't defy physics, the ideal gas law PV=nRT means that if you know the volume and temperature inand the boost after you know the temperature after boost because n has been iterated. That's Sprintex/Innovate/Moto-Mike's big secret that Dezoris is so paranoid about because the guys he talks to don't have a clue.

That's what I also mentioned to him before.. If you know the variance you can program it in and let the ECU handle the modified value .. Easy since you know all the other readings.
He is also missing some of the basics.. Such as more plumbing, the pressure drop across the IC , efficiency of the IC all require you to run MORE psi to overcome the IC setup, in turn generating more heat that the IC has to deal with... Fine if your running lots of boost.. But not such an advantage with low boost pressures.
You're already talking about an efficient type of blower (less generated heat) and relatively low boost pressures.. The post data logs can tell the story as well by the amount of timing pulled, if any, EGTs...

So it's no wonder the other vendors don't discuss it.. There is no need to..

[phloozy]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

That's what I also mentioned to him before.. If you know the variance you can program it in and let the ECU handle the modified value .. Easy since you know all the other readings.
He is also missing some of the basics.. Such as more plumbing, the pressure drop across the IC , efficiency of the IC all require you to run MORE psi to overcome the IC setup, in turn generating more heat that the IC has to deal with... Fine if your running lots of boost.. But not such an advantage with low boost pressures.
You're already talking about an efficient type of blower (less generated heat) and relatively low boost pressures.. The post data logs can tell the story as well by the amount of timing pulled, if any, EGTs...

So it's no wonder the other vendors don't discuss it.. There is no need to..

BUT HE ASKED AND DESERVES AN ANSWER! Not sure why he didn't get an answer, I asked the question to mike and he explained it pretty clearly.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by phloozy

BUT HE ASKED AND DESERVES AN ANSWER! Not sure why he didn't get an answer, I asked the question to mike and he explained it pretty clearly.

So.. Pass it on and he has his info.. Otherwise it's just a personal issue.. Next..

[phloozy]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

So.. Pass it on and he has his info.. Otherwise it's just a personal issue.. Next..

the internet needs a sarcasm font :P

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

So.. Pass it on and he has his info.. Otherwise it's just a personal issue.. Next..

I have an expectation from the tuners/resellers/OEM to take them time to write a FAQ/thread and answer these basic questions that myself and others have asked for months regarding IAT and IC, fuel etc. It would be a done deal, over with.

They make the time for the sales pitch threads and to post the cherry picked dynos but don't like to answer the real questions.

I have linked the tuners, and Innovate every time I ask questions about tuning stability on all fuels, or the problems they had with their own test car on 91.

Not even a response. Not a FU or a we will get back to you etc.
So the common sense thing is to ask why.

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by tbssowner

so was there a consensus in this thread?

Personally I think a roots/twin screw definately has potential and would help with the lack of torque on these tiny motors. There is something to be said on having instant tq just above idle to redline. These types of blowers even with liquid to air charge coolers have to fight heat soak, you will need to run meth or secondary injectors to really make power. The centri blowers are definately a viable option but do have the downside of make power progressively and not reaching full boost until redline. The idea that you could bleed off boost to keep peak tq down low all the way to redline sounds good in theory but your IAT's will be through the roof. I am leaning towards the vortech setup as there is more support, documentation, and they are stateside. I really think either of these setups come down to how you like you power delivery and what option fits your goals.

Now if you are talking about really making power then I think both of these setups will fall short. They will not be able to make 400-500 whp while staying in the ideal compressor range, you may be able to get by running a shit ton of meth, e85 or c16, maybe nitrous, but in the end you will need a bigger compressor. In the LS world the roots style blowers are usually good up to about 600-800 range after that people either do some crazy blower fab work, go with a large centri blower, or go turbo with a 100mm compressor.

Either you didn't read this thread, or your reading comprehension is around 2nd grade level. Go back thru this thread and try again.


IE, if it is the idea, it's only yours about the IAT temps going up.

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

I have an expectation from the tuners/resellers/OEM to take them time to write a FAQ/thread and answer these basic questions that myself and others have asked for months regarding IAT and IC, fuel etc. It would be a done deal, over with.

They make the time for the sales pitch threads and to post the cherry picked dynos but don't like to answer the real questions.

I have linked the tuners, and Innovate every time I ask questions about tuning stability on all fuels, or the problems they had with their own test car on 91.

Not even a response. Not a FU or a we will get back to you etc.
So the common sense thing is to ask why.

Random Q for you, when you say "cherry picked Dynos" can you please elaborate?

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by Adeets

Random Q for you, when you say "cherry picked Dynos" can you please elaborate?

I mean taking the highest dyno plots these guys made and post a thread saying: Look I made XXXX-HP.

Then not answering questions about repeatability and how they got those numbers by posting logs, temps whether they had dry ice on the block etc.
Just no oversight whether they are legit or not.

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

I mean taking the highest dyno plots these guys made and post a thread saying: Look I made XXXX-HP.

Then not answering questions about repeatability and how they got those numbers by posting logs, temps whether they had dry ice on the block etc.
Just no oversight whether they are legit or not.

So every dyno on this forum, unless its a dyno showing a fault.

Why would I or anyone post my 52 tuning Dynos where were changing shit to get the most HP, but instead drop the HP/torque, when I'm on the dyno it's like a yo-yo, high number low number mid number low number... Why would I waste precious Internet bandwidth on posting that, when at the end, when I decide its enough HP, to choose that tune and run a couple Dynos then save those 2-3 Dynos and post it?

If chewbaca lives on endor you must aquit.

I think what your looking for makes no sense, and that's why your not finding it.

But you could always go over to moto-easts website and click on support, then Dynos, them scroll down, and low and behold a dyno with 15ish pulls showing the progression of moto mikes ft86 tune.

[lexusb3]

Originally Posted by Adeets

So every dyno on this forum, unless its a dyno showing a fault.

Why would I or anyone post my 52 tuning Dynos where were changing shit to get the most HP, but instead drop the HP/torque, when I'm on the dyno it's like a yo-yo, high number low number mid number low number... Why would I waste precious Internet bandwidth on posting that, when at the end, when I decide its enough HP, to choose that tune and run a couple Dynos then save those 2-3 Dynos and post it?

If chewbaca lives on endor you must aquit.

I think what your looking for makes no sense, and that's why your not finding it.

But you could always go over to moto-easts website and click on support, then Dynos, them scroll down, and low and behold a dyno with 15ish pulls showing the progression of moto mikes ft86 tune.

i have like 300 miles of dyno lol posting every log will cause this server to crash lol if i made 312 on one run 320 on another and 337 on my last run why would i show the slowest ones hahaha i agree with you @Adeets

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by Adeets

So every dyno on this forum, unless its a dyno showing a fault.

Why would I or anyone post my 52 tuning Dynos where were changing shit to get the most HP, but instead drop the HP/torque, when I'm on the dyno it's like a yo-yo, high number low number mid number low number... Why would I waste precious Internet bandwidth on posting that, when at the end, when I decide its enough HP, to choose that tune and run a couple Dynos then save those 2-3 Dynos and post it?

If chewbaca lives on endor you must aquit.

I think what your looking for makes no sense, and that's why your not finding it.

But you could always go over to moto-easts website and click on support, then Dynos, them scroll down, and low and behold a dyno with 15ish pulls showing the progression of moto mikes ft86 tune.

I am talking specifically about the Innovate dynos because of the known issues with heat soak, namely on crap fuel I want to see varience.

Tough crowd today, I understand what you are saying, not asking for the impossible, just SOME transparency and some answers on this forum as it relates to this kit.

https://www.moto-east.com/support/

Where are they?

[448hpsti]

Originally Posted by phloozy

the internet needs a sarcasm font :P

the entire thread is unclear
are we shopping girth length depth or technique?
want to go longer? harder? faster? deeper?

Cause baby I got all 3.
LOL!

sarcasm and humor aside, and with a disclaimer that i have no seat time in the other PD out there, but know my setup well:

I'm ONLY trying to help with sharing what I have learned so I hope no one gets bent...

I tested this myself because when I first got my kit it was cool out and not worthwhile testing when its 85 out...in my experience, the best test of an FMIC is when its hottest out, the hottest conditions you would track in

my body limit is about 100-105F, too old for any hotter

the net FMIC temp rise with my 10-10.5psi of boost on a 100+ ambient day here in AriHotAsHellZona is about 30F which is pretty darn good, that is, I did some tests when it was about 105F and logged results at 85mph(some of the faster straightways at my local track I see 100+ some I see 60 in 2nd) and got IAT equal to about 135F after a 15 minute WOT beat fest to get some heat soak, this is converted using google and taken as a C number outta ecutek log.
ymmv

centri blowers not reaching full boost before redline is true, but what ya gonna do with 15psi of boost at redline anyways without a fully built hardened motor? I would do 11ish psi on a street car with confidence and 10ish psi on a track car, not that you cant do more, just that I dont feel comfy pushing my reliability that far when driving like a maniac around a track intentionally

Rather,with the centri there is a very very wide range of pulley sizes with such a large boost plot to work with and so many CFM on tap, you can run anything from 3.6" if you need the most outta fuel economy and give up a little oomph, you can run a 2.87" pulley (and smaller yet!)very very safely on the new oil fed sc I am running. on the self lube, you can still Run a smallish pulley and add a wastegate, and a smaller pulley will build you more boost sooner, so much so that you build too much boost and need a wastegate to blow off excess, I dont know what the official word is on warranty from either vendor with smaller pulley use, but you can run the 3.125 pulley too.
While I am positive the 2.87 runs fine on a streetcar as I ran it extensively myself, I am also not at all comfy taking that to the track, self lubed that is.

see lower photo: infact you can run a 3.00 " pulley tho that one only comes in a 8 rib version, the spacing is the same and runs our 6 rib belt just fine, both give the centri lots more of that down low push the pedal and go feel with the best of both worlds being that theres tons of air to play with up top, as a street setup.

I didnt track wastegateless with anything smaller than a 3.33, and that was a blast too. The FMIC being oversized to hell makes for a great track setup, and the oil fed SC offering/upgradepath may weigh or may not weigh in the OP's search for an answer. My personal recommendation is to not go smaller than a 3.33 at the track but your tuners advice is what you pay pay for.

I am certain this will be an easier question to answer when you actually have apples to apples to compare, ie vanilla offering of both kits vs eachother and then built assed versions of both kits, take both head to head.

sometimes the dyno queen IS the track queen, but thats often and usually a very pricey build to pull off.
others can often be a track whore but not the peak output on a roller
I'm going for staying power, finishing time after time and being able to use all of my available at 'max duty cycle' to pump it harder longer, and thast often faster in the long run.

other can have peak output on a roller but to do that sustained can be a handful of money

potentialwise I think BOTH kits have alot to be said for them, tho having not seen the 'dark side' IC offering, thats the one I wanna drive and see for myself, truth be told, for now with the current offerings being compared, I prefer the turbo like deal-when you use the cars oil system and augmented cooling system to bolster the boost delivery system with ample cooling, you can oversize in a major way and thats great for us track day builder types.

back to shits and giggles!