CSG Mike's observations on dampers/coilovers

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by solidONE

This sounds interesting. Do you have links to literature or other information about this?

The spring/bar combo debate is an old one. (Or maybe was.)

The Atlantic/Pacific difference is something Mike mentioned in a different thread, but only spring rate choice. I'm extrapolating that it may be similar to the spring/bar debate.

An old suspension tuning philosophy was spring the car as softly as possible just to the point of not bottoming for the course, then manage the roll and balance with bars. But this was way back and it could be that the tires sucked so hard they needed every bit of help to get traction. Also could be to do with old-timey Trans-Am road race geometry which was double wishbone front, and solid axle back. I think double wishbone can dial in a lot of geometric anti-dive, and know that stick axles can generate so much anti-squat that they can actually be designed to lift under power if they want.

But times have changed so I'm curious how the spring/bar combination works best in current car/geometry/tires situation.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

So I'm assuming "development" means the white car has been better set up closer to idea in terms of spring rates and damping/valving. The JRZ will likely work better when dialed in as your SRC's have, or do you mean the JRZ are made of superior construction/components?

Purely damping.

[diss7]

My 'overly dumbed down' conclusion was to understand it as follows, swaybars for side to side weight transfer (roll), springs for front to back weight transfer, and comfort.

From that, front to back weight transfer, certinaly for someone like myself, that wants 1. Comfort, 2. Ability to easily move weight front to back to unsettle it.

As I said, this is possibly too simplified ( I can't explain it any better ) or perhaps just flat out wrong!

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by diss7

My 'overly dumbed down' conclusion was to understand it as follows, swaybars for side to side weight transfer (roll), springs for front to back weight transfer, and comfort.

From that, front to back weight transfer, certinaly for someone like myself, that wants 1. Comfort, 2. Ability to easily move weight front to back to unsettle it.

As I said, this is possibly too simplified ( I can't explain it any better ) or perhaps just flat out wrong!

This can be the subject of a dissertation...

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by diss7

My 'overly dumbed down' conclusion was to understand it as follows, swaybars for side to side weight transfer (roll), springs for front to back weight transfer, and comfort.

From that, front to back weight transfer, certinaly for someone like myself, that wants 1. Comfort, 2. Ability to easily move weight front to back to unsettle it.

As I said, this is possibly too simplified ( I can't explain it any better ) or perhaps just flat out wrong!

As it's all bolted to the same chassis, the first thing to understand is everything affects everything.

[Racecomp Engineering]

IMO the main reason to do a soft spring/big bar set-up is for ride quality on a dual purpose car...which is understandable and I think you can still make a pretty awesome car with that mentality. But for a pure track car we like a lot more spring.

- Andy

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

IMO the main reason to do a soft spring/big bar set-up is for ride quality on a dual purpose car...which is understandable and I think you can still make a pretty awesome car with that mentality.

Works really well for my car running sticky street tires

[DylanFRS]

I just want to give you a big hug Mike for not using any words such as "dampeners, dampening, dampen, etc"... Seriously, you made my day, thank you, two thumbs up...

P.S. When people start talking about their dampeners, it makes me dampen my eyes.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Over the past 9 months or so, I've had the opportunity to drive on virtually every damper/coilover system on the market. These are my thoughts. A special thank you goes out to the countless members who have offered me the opportunity to drive in their setups so that I can get an impression of how they function, both on track and on the street.

First, there are a LOT of badly damped systems out there. Frequently, the damper is not properly matched up to the spring, and are often underdamped. The end result is a harsher ride that is frequently perceived to be faster/better because it is "stiffer", but the reality is that these cars had less grip than stock.

Second, there's a strong correlation between underdamped systems and price. This isn't to say that an expensive coilover/shock is always good, but the lower priced systems, so far, have universally been underdamped for hard driving. The underdamped characteristic allows for a "more comfortable" ride under street use with higher spring rates, giving a false sense of increased grip.

Third, the stock dampers are VERY well matched to the springs. While the stock suspension is soft, it is critically damped for performance. Most people will perceive the (somewhat excessive) body roll to be hurting cornering grip, but the reality is that it really only hurts transition time between weight transfer. If you drive according to the car, instead of trying to force the car to do what you want it to do, you can put down some REALLY smoking fast times at the track. To top it off, the stock system uses soft spring rates, so street driving is nice and comfy, albeit a bit on the harsh side given the spring rates (due to the "performance" oriented nature of the damping).

I understand that a lot of you don't like the body roll that is the result of the stock spring rates, but trust me, the stock stuff is GOOD.

As always, do as much research as you can before making a decision as to what's right for you. Some systems offer a different range of ride heights, while others do not. Some systems may not be able to offer the ride you're looking for, and there is no "one product fits all" when it comes to suspension.

[448hpsti]

I run both R-comps and street tires and the settings are very different for the two, for me atleast. I am on the softish spring, firm-ish compression fast-ish rebound flavor, with as little bar as needed.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

I just want to give you a big hug Mike for not using any words such as "dampeners, dampening, dampen, etc"... Seriously, you made my day, thank you, two thumbs up...

P.S. When people start talking about their dampeners, it makes me dampen my eyes.

Silly thing to get upset about since they both mean to deaden vibrations.

[448hpsti]

just dont call it a DAMPENER

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by 448hpsti

I run both R-comps and street tires and the settings are very different for the two, for me atleast. I am on the softish spring, firm-ish compression fast-ish rebound flavor, with as little bar as needed.

We run both as well, but we're running on the sticky side of the street tire spectrum. Admittedly, we haven't run anything less sticky than a 200TW tire since we've stepped up our spring rates, but even those tires are able to handle a 12k/15k spring setup.

On the other hand, we haven't run anything other than NT01/RC1, so we're not exactly deep into slick territory either...

[CSG Mike]

Sometimes I daydream of the type of setup I would have, if I were building an unlimited budget double duty BRZ for myself.

I do know I'd be starting with a set of regressive dampers...

/daydream

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by qoncept

Silly thing to get upset about since they both mean to deaden vibrations.

I think that comes from the horrible misuse of it. Kind of like "funner". It used to not be a proper word. The correct thing to say was "more fun". Since we, as a civilization, would just rather be lazy and not learn to speak properly, much to my dismay, it is now in the dictionary:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/funner


The vibration was "damped" but since everyone says the vibration was "dampened". That shock did all of the damping. That shock did all of the dampening. We need better dampers to reduce oscillation. We need better dampeners.

It may now be a proper word in the dictionary, but for the wrong reasons. We don't need two words for damp, damped, damping, etc that have the exact same meaning and usage.