CSG Mike's observations on dampers/coilovers

[whataboutbob]

Just finished reading this thread for the first time. Thanks to everyone for their inputs.

[ultra]

@CSG Mike

Do you think coilovers you mentioned with ultra high spring rates (such as the Tein SRCs you mentioned) would work well with non-extreme, 225 or 235 width street tires or would they tend to overpower the tires and/or demand high grip tires such as RS3s, Z2s, Rivals and the like?

What do you think of pillow ball upper mounts for bad roads?

And at which point would you recommend paying the premium for JRZs or Ohlins DFVs?

Also, how well would they work on less than ideal pavement?

[diss7]

Interesting read.

Although I have more questions ha ha.

Also, I realise now I know nothing about coilovers.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ultra

@CSG Mike

Do you think coilovers you mentioned with ultra high spring rates (such as the Tein SRCs you mentioned) would work well with non-extreme, 225 or 235 width street tires or would they tend to overpower the tires and/or demand high grip tires such as RS3s, Z2s, Rivals and the like?

What do you think of pillow ball upper mounts for bad roads?

And at which point would you recommend paying the premium for JRZs or Ohlins DFVs?

Also, how well would they work on less than ideal pavement?

We use our SRCs with 225 RS3/Rivals/etc., which are all street tires, as well our our stick tires.

While they force a heavier load on the tire, we haven't had any issues.

Ohlins DFV's are NOT a premium product, only a premium name. They have more expensive products that are more representative of the Ohlins name.

Are JRZ's worth the money? Hell yes, if you can appreciate a good damper. I wouldn't recommend the RS-1 though. RS at the minium, and RS-Pro to really get the full experience.

Pillowballs can be rebuilt; we drive on terrible roads in Southern California, and while they do eventually wear out, we can't really document the wear because the platform hasn't been around long enough. We'll keep everyone posted.

As a data point, every rebuild/revalve of our SRCs also involves a full inspection to document any potential wear, tear, and issues, and we're still using the original pillowballs that came with the dampers. They haven't been reconditioned or rebuilt yet.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by diss7

Interesting read.

Although I have more questions ha ha.

Also, I realise now I know nothing about coilovers.

Ask away, and I'll answer to the best of my ability. I'm sure some others will chime in as well; I have a lot to learn as well.

[diss7]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Ask away, and I'll answer to the best of my ability. I'm sure some others will chime in as well; I have a lot to learn as well.

Cool. Well, give you some background on what I want to acheive...

Heres a quote of a post I made in the thread about Teins.

I'm not looking to improve handling. Want to keep it somewhat comfortable, and just lower it.

If anything, I'm intentionally making my car handle worse, to make it more chuckable.

I want coils to lower the car, and to have height adjustability. Not rock hard crazy high spring rates, for track racing.

My car will almost certainly never see the track. I have a dedicated track car for that.

Here's my blasphemous plans for my suspension.

More low maybe 30mm front 35mm back, but retain as much comfort / suspension travel as possible. Stock top hats to keep 'clanging' away.
Whiteline camber bolts, to hopefully get 2 degree f camber
Rear camber should be about the same
Whiteline adjustable front swaybar
Whiteline extra heavy duty adjustable rear swaybar
I've already got the whiteline gear coming.

Depending on what alignment shows at desired height, may need to throw in some front lower arms for more caster, and some arms if toe is not near zero.

Basically, I'm addressing thre issues I have with stock setup. Height, front rollover outside tyre, weak rear sway. Keeping the important things adjustable do can fine tune.

Yes I'm intentionally making car oversteer easier. Yes I'm sure that's what I want.

If cheap teins are indeed so bad, I will replace. But at this stage, I don't think the difference between cheap teins and expensive anything else is doing anything (that I want out of the car) other than lighten my wallet.

I've read this thread and a couple of others, and am trying to understand what things to what. Still trying to understand that spring rates don't affect comfort levels, to a degree.

I'm looking at FA in a bit more detail now. These also have a local dealer. He said he can't rebuild, but will only charge $200 return shipping when that time comes.

He has advised 6kg F and 6Kg R. I am thinking that maybe I could step up to 6kg F, 8kg R, so I don't get rear end squat. He has also advised he's happy to swap springs free of charge, if I don't get them right first time; nice touch I thought.

Happy to hear your thoughts? Be honest, brutal if need be. I can take it

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

We use our SRCs with 225 RS3/Rivals/etc., which are all street tires, as well our our stick tires.

While they force a heavier load on the tire, we haven't had any issues.

Ohlins DFV's are NOT a premium product, only a premium name. They have more expensive products that are more representative of the Ohlins name.

Are JRZ's worth the money? Hell yes, if you can appreciate a good damper. I wouldn't recommend the RS-1 though. RS at the minium, and RS-Pro to really get the full experience.

Pillowballs can be rebuilt; we drive on terrible roads in Southern California, and while they do eventually wear out, we can't really document the wear because the platform hasn't been around long enough. We'll keep everyone posted.

As a data point, every rebuild/revalve of our SRCs also involves a full inspection to document any potential wear, tear, and issues, and we're still using the original pillowballs that came with the dampers. They haven't been reconditioned or rebuilt yet.

The JRZ on the red car or the SRC on the white car? Appels to apples, which is the superior "apple?"

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by diss7

I'm looking at FA in a bit more detail now. These also have a local dealer. He said he can't rebuild, but will only charge $200 return shipping when that time comes.

He has advised 6kg F and 6Kg R. I am thinking that maybe I could step up to 6kg F, 8kg R, so I don't get rear end squat. He has also advised he's happy to swap springs free of charge, if I don't get them right first time; nice touch I thought.

Happy to hear your thoughts? Be honest, brutal if need be. I can take it

What is this shop's qualifications, and what is their reasoning behind advising a 6k/6k spring rate? That's lower in the rear than the default 6k/7k (the DA don't have a "default").

6k/8k will result in a fairly loose car (and I personally prefer looser cars...); you can add a front sway to compensate to a degree.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

The JRZ on the red car or the SRC on the white car? Appels to apples, which is the superior "apple?"

For now? The SRCs; we haven't developed the JRZs as extensively. Now at a similar level of development, I suspect the results would be different, but this could be said about ANY high end damper we develop.

[diss7]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

What is this shop's qualifications, and what is their reasoning behind advising a 6k/6k spring rate? That's lower in the rear than the default 6k/7k (the DA don't have a "default").

6k/8k will result in a fairly loose car (and I personally prefer looser cars...); you can add a front sway to compensate to a degree.

Loose is good.

Currently trawling through the info about tarmac zero's. They certinaly are loved on here.

Will just come down to the shipping cost, as the rrp is very reasonable :/

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

What is this shop's qualifications, and what is their reasoning behind advising a 6k/6k spring rate? That's lower in the rear than the default 6k/7k (the DA don't have a "default").

6k/8k will result in a fairly loose car (and I personally prefer looser cars...); you can add a front sway to compensate to a degree.

In his post he has Whiteline adjustable front, and 'extra heavy duty' adjustable rear bars on order.

So from this, can we expand into what to do with spring rates and bar strength interaction?

I've read about the British philosophy of choosing springs for a front:rear frequency ratio of ~1.0:1.1 to manage pitching oscilations, then adjusting bars to desired over/understeer.

Or starting simpler, the more basic soft spring/big bar vs hard spring/soft bar setups which kind sounds like the Atlantic vs Pacific coast setups.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

For now? The SRCs; we haven't developed the JRZs as extensively. Now at a similar level of development, I suspect the results would be different, but this could be said about ANY high end damper we develop.

So I'm assuming "development" means the white car has been better set up closer to idea in terms of spring rates and damping/valving. The JRZ will likely work better when dialed in as your SRC's have, or do you mean the JRZ are made of superior construction/components?

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Or starting simpler, the more basic soft spring/big bar vs hard spring/soft bar setups which kind sounds like the Atlantic vs Pacific coast setups.

This sounds interesting. Do you have links to literature or other information about this?

[diss7]

Originally Posted by Dimman

In his post he has Whiteline adjustable front, and 'extra heavy duty' adjustable rear bars on order.

So from this, can we expand into what to do with spring rates and bar strength interaction?

I've read about the British philosophy of choosing springs for a front:rear frequency ratio of ~1.0:1.1 to manage pitching oscilations, then adjusting bars to desired over/understeer.

Or starting simpler, the more basic soft spring/big bar vs hard spring/soft bar setups which kind sounds like the Atlantic vs Pacific coast setups.

I've read a little about this, and also experience a couple of cars with the differing options.

My preference was certainly the softer spring, hard bar setup. Don't ask me techinically why, it just felt better to the ol' butt dyno.