Potential Buyer. Turbo vs. Supercharger

[AVOturboworld]

The problem may be rooted in the understanding and usage of the term "linear" as has been applied on this board. For instance, to have a linear hp to rpm, you need to have a nearly flat torque curve. That's because hp is a measurement of torque x rpm, divided by 5252. A turbocharger or the twin-screw supercharger is going to be able to produce that.

example:



Torque curve is nearly flat - and hp is nearly a straight angle up.

The Vortech supercharger and other similar designs have linear boost, boost climbs in a linear fashion as it's tied to pulley speed, which is naturally tied to rpm. This doesn't create a flat torque curve, though, and thus not as linear a hp band.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

Another comparison, with Moto Mike's e85 base (7psi) Innovate tune

EDIT: Just noticed, not exactly a fair comparison as Innovate tune is on dynojet!

Here is my Dynojet run and we can compare it to the E85 Innovate run. I can also post up the actual Dynojet run files so they can be plotted against other runs as well, or if Moto Mike has the files and wants to send them to me:





At 3500 RPM the E85 Innovate is making 130 hp and 190 ft/lbs while my 93 octane Full Blown is making 120 hp and 180 ft/lbs as it is still building up boost to 12 psi at that point.

At 4000 RPM, Moto Mike's is making 150 hp and 195 ft/lbs while my mine is making 190 hp and 245 ft/lbs and the full 12 psi has arrived.

The numbers only get worse from that point on as my car makes 250 ft/lbs from around 4000 RPM to 6500 RPM and the Innovate peaks at 210 ft/lbs. So the question is as to whether making boost a little bit sooner and making a little more power before 3500 RPM is worth getting the Innovate kit.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by AVOturboworld

The problem may be rooted in the understanding and usage of the term "linear" as has been applied on this board. For instance, to have a linear hp to rpm, you need to have a nearly flat torque curve. That's because hp is a measurement of torque x rpm, divided by 5252. A turbocharger or the twin-screw turbocharger is going to be able to produce that.

Torque curve is nearly flat - and hp is nearly a straight angle up.

The Vortech supercharger and other similar designs have linear boost, boost climbs in a linear fashion as it's tied to pulley speed, which is naturally tied to rpm. This doesn't create a flat torque curve, though, and thus not as linear a hp band.

Thanks for explaining it better than I could have. If you really want to see low end linear power, here is my favorite example:



350 ft/lbs at 2250 RPM you say, haha.

[Adeets]

I think what they mean with vortech is its linear torque delivery, not 300tq at 2k, high torque at get go is what breaks stuff, and eats clutches.



If that's not a linear HP band, I dunno what is, slap a ruler on your screen, it's pretty fricken straight.


*92 octane, moto-east tuned.

[DJCarbine]

Originally Posted by Adeets

I think what they mean with vortech is its linear torque delivery, not 300tq at 2k, high torque at get go is what breaks stuff, and eats clutches.



If that's not a linear HP band, I dunno what is, slap a ruler on your screen, it's pretty fricken straight.


*92 octane, moto-east tuned.

This is exactly what I meant

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by King Tut

Here is my Dynojet run and we can compare it to the E85 Innovate run. I can also post up the actual Dynojet run files so they can be plotted against other runs as well, or if Moto Mike has the files and wants to send them to me:





At 3500 RPM the E85 Innovate is making 130 hp and 190 ft/lbs while my 93 octane Full Blown is making 120 hp and 180 ft/lbs as it is still building up boost to 12 psi at that point.

At 4000 RPM, Moto Mike's is making 150 hp and 195 ft/lbs while my mine is making 190 hp and 245 ft/lbs and the full 12 psi has arrived.

The numbers only get worse from that point on as my car makes 250 ft/lbs from around 4000 RPM to 6500 RPM and the Innovate peaks at 210 ft/lbs. So the question is as to whether making boost a little bit sooner and making a little more power before 3500 RPM is worth getting the Innovate kit.

Pd push pedal get zoom.
Turbo push pedal get spool.
Stop comparing them... Makes no sense. Are you comparing a 7 psi pd to a 12 psi turbo?

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by AVOturboworld

The problem may be rooted in the understanding and usage of the term "linear" as has been applied on this board. For instance, to have a linear hp to rpm, you need to have a nearly flat torque curve. That's because hp is a measurement of torque x rpm, divided by 5252. A turbocharger or the twin-screw supercharger is going to be able to produce that.

example:



Torque curve is nearly flat - and hp is nearly a straight angle up.

The Vortech supercharger and other similar designs have linear boost, boost climbs in a linear fashion as it's tied to pulley speed, which is naturally tied to rpm. This doesn't create a flat torque curve, though, and thus not as linear a hp band.

See above.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by Adeets

Pd push pedal get zoom.
Turbo push pedal get spool.
Stop comparing them... Makes no sense. Are you comparing a 7 psi pd to a 12 psi turbo?

If there was a 12 psi one to compare I would. We are also comparing 93 octane to E85. As I said if you like only pushing the pedal at under 4000 RPM, then go ahead and buy the Innovate. If you only like pushing the pedal at 6500 RPM, then go ahead and buy the Vortech. If you like pushing the pedal the whole time, then we all know what the correct choice is.

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by King Tut

If there was a 12 psi one to compare I would. We are also comparing 93 octane to E85. As I said if you like only pushing the pedal at under 4000 RPM, then go ahead and buy the Innovate. If you only like pushing the pedal at 6500 RPM, then go ahead and buy the Vortech. If you like pushing the pedal the whole time, then we all know what the correct choice is.

The whole time waiting for boost?

There's a few vortechs running e85 with 340-360 at the wheels with no lag, there's also one guy I've seen so far running the vortech EBC/waste gated for 9psi but he gets it at 5k rpm, he's sitting at 210 torque @2.5k with 93 octane. I'm planning on mimicking him with my build since its pure sex without having to run e85.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by Adeets

The whole time waiting for boost?

I don't know which turbo BRZs you have driven, but I spend next to no time waiting for boost. It arrives when I want at the amount I want.

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by King Tut

I don't know which turbo BRZs you have driven, but I spend next to no time waiting for boost. It arrives when I want at the amount I want.

Spool time working as intended, check.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by Adeets

The whole time waiting for boost?

There's a few vortechs running e85 with 340-360 at the wheels with no lag, there's also one guy I've seen so far running the vortech EBC/waste gated for 9psi but he gets it at 5k rpm, he's sitting at 210 torque @2.5k with 93 octane. I'm planning on mimicking him with my build since its pure sex without having to run e85.

Yeah, lag is kind of a myth with the kits being sold for this car. Basically all of them have options for turbos properly sized for the engine and lag is barely noticeable if at all.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by Adeets

Spool time working as intended, check.

Maximum boost only at 7400 RPM. Centri charger working as intended, check.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by Adeets

there's also one guy I've seen so far running the vortech EBC/waste gated for 9psi but he gets it at 5k rpm, he's sitting at 210 torque @2.5k with 93 octane.

Can I see a dyno of said 210 ft/lbs @ 2500 RPM on a Vortech?