Is the BRZ doomed?!?!

[ashtray]

The way I see it, Subaru and Toyota worked together on this car, but I believe each company gave in to compromises it wouldn't have otherwise taken.

The most glaring is the engine. Toyota needed the boxer engine to keep the engine as low as possible. Remember pedestrian safety laws - that hood line can't go that low with an I4. Subaru likely didnt want the D4S. Before the twins came out, Toyota said "about 200hp", and Subaru said "under 300". And 200 IS under 300. But reading between the lines and some other quotes of power from Subaru lead interviews - Subaru's got a mill ready to drop in with 280hp. I bet Toyota said "no", and is making them shelf that motor until they're ready to split the twins apart and give each company a green light to develop as they wish.

Think of the relationship kinda like the Firebird and Camaro were. (Each had a basic structure that was defined and then Pontiac and Chevy made it however they wanted, including different engines, until the 90's.)


Think of this: a 280hp BRZ STi. For $35k. What would SCION have to offer to compete with that in the States? Globally, the Toyota brand could probably handle a GT86 with a 25% price bump, but not Scion. And at those levels of power, lightweight, and price - it could compete with the new Supra Toyota is planning. Subaru's not part of that project. Toyota has to keep the twins under control until it has all 3 RWD sports cars in its line up.

I predict Toyota and Subaru split paths with the twins for either a mid model or second gen.

Toyota only owns around 37% (less?) of Subaru. They don't control them.

[gt8613]

We need to kill this man!

Originally Posted by Chee-Hu

They should just end production of the BRZ now!

[Deslock]

The Drive article is sensationalistic. It went from:

Originally Posted by Tada

I hope to make an engine upgrade at least one time with this car

to claiming that increased performance "will definitely make it to production when the 86 receives its mid-life upgrade in 2015."

As far as the claim that Toyota might be "potentially dropping the boxer engine altogether" goes, Tada's exact quote is:

Originally Posted by Tada

The boxer [engine] has benefit for low centre of gravity, but [we will develop the] concept for the next generation car first and then we will look at best possible options to fit

At least Drive put in the word "potentially" before the word "dropping", but it's still a bit misleading.

As far as a hybrid goes, Drive somehow got from:

Originally Posted by Tada

We [have] already tried all possibilities and there are several types of 86 prototypes at the Toyota proving ground now; one is a turbocharger, one is bigger displacement and [the other is a] special hybrid system.

All possibilities are being considered.

to claiming "it is almost certain the hybrid system Toyota is currently working on will make its way into the next-generation 86".

And the best has to be Drive's claim (without any sort of supporting quote) that this supposed next generation 86 hybrid "is unlikely to be a conventional, and heavy, battery pack but rather a road-going development of the super capacitor system".

Uhuh. Super capacitors have been discussed for cars since the Honda JVX concept in the 1990s. They're still expensive, discharge quickly, and have poor energy density... it'll be a while before they filter down from Toyota's Le Mans program to a reasonably priced production car like the FT86.

[a2cpc]

They own 16%. I don't think they said anything about abandoning the chassis. It might be their car. Like I have said, we don't know who owns the "Rights". Since it was their idea and their prototype, it might very well be their car.

[Z_Rocks]

The BRZ & FR-S are selling well and took several years of R&D and they're not going away anytime soon.

[RurumariGhost]

Toyota won't split off because then they'd have to build a factory for gt-86/fr-s production. Thats just cost prohibitive.

[Frstorm]

When your talking 25% price increase you jump up to stiffer competition. Toyota knew for this to be successful it needed to remain under 30k. For 35-40k I don't know if I would go this over some other cars

[SUB-FT86]

I believe it will gain 10hp/4tq. That's what happen with the RSX. They will not ditch the 2.0L or go F/I I bet. They will find a way to up the redline a little higher and that's it.

[Steve201brz]

Originally Posted by RurumariGhost

Toyota won't split off because then they'd have to build a factory for gt-86/fr-s production. Thats just cost prohibitive.

Well put. And from what I've read, Subaru makes more 86/FRS then they do BRZ's...so to me it sounds like Toyota has a good deal

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Nothing

If they drop the Boxer engine and it's got a setup similar to the S2K with room for a turbo. I'd seriously consider buying one. I'm not a fan of this engine from a DIY maintenance standpoint.

????

What DYI were you thinking of?

All you can really do on these modern engines is change the oil and the air filter. Both of these tasks are super simple on these new gen Subie engines.

Plugs no longer need changing very often.

Anything else?

[tomato86]

Most of these rumors published are bunk, I hate that this kind of stuff is taken seriously.

[Brzetto]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Evidence pls. They are externally identical.

Thill beat me to it.

[zc06_kisstherain]

Originally Posted by Suberman

????

What DYI were you thinking of?

All you can really do on these modern engines is change the oil and the air filter. Both of these tasks are super simple on these new gen Subie engines.

Plugs no longer need changing very often.

Anything else?

Spark plugs?

[Chee-Hu]

Originally Posted by gt8613

We need to kill this man!

I would love for you try.