Is the BRZ doomed?!?!

[phloozy]

dont the new FXTs use the FA20 engine?

[Brzetto]

Originally Posted by phloozy

dont the new FXTs use the FA20 engine?

Yes they use turbocharged FA20's.

[a2cpc]

Originally Posted by KelvinBRZ

This IS a Subaru motor after all with slight tweaks from Toyota in DI & NA. If anything Subaru has the upper hand in improving the twins just because mechanically, the car was designed by Subaru. Toyota did the exterior styling, so if the partnership were to end, the BRZs would get more uglier and the Scions/Toyotas would lose the boxer engine and therefore the low center of gravity. IMO it hurts Toyota more than Subaru if they were to split.

Actually, Toyota built the prototype, then sold the idea to Subaru to build it for them. We don't know what the agreement is or who owns the "rights". Did you read the article, Toyota doesn't seem to worried about the COG...

"Tada admitted was an option.
"The boxer [engine] has benefit for low centre of gravity, but [we will develop the] concept for the next generation car first and then we will look at best possible options to fit," he said."

Originally Posted by thill

I don't see this car as a bridge car at all to a WRX. I was not shopping for a WRX at all because I wanted a true RWD 2 door sports car. Not a heavier four door AWD car. The next FT86 is not 2-3 years away. It is most likely at least 5+ years away.

I know a few people that went in looking to buy a Forester, Impreza, or WRX and drove away a BRZ. Just because you weren't looking doesn't mean Subaru didn't see the BRZ as a way to keep the waning excitement up as they developed the next WRX.

And I have to ask you too...did you read the article?

"Tetsuya Tada, has finally admitted his team is developing a number of ways to increase performance of the showroom version; one of which will definitely make it to production when the 86receives its mid-life upgrade in 2015."

I don't follow Toyota, but Subaru has a habit of doing a refresh after 2 or 3 years, sometimes with an engine change ala the WRX.

[thill]

Originally Posted by a2cpc

Actually, Toyota built the prototype, then sold the idea to Subaru to build it for them. We don't know what the agreement is or who owns the "rights". Did you read the article, Toyota doesn't seem to worried about the COG...

"Tada admitted was an option.
"The boxer [engine] has benefit for low centre of gravity, but [we will develop the] concept for the next generation car first and then we will look at best possible options to fit," he said."



I know a few people that went in looking to buy a Forester, Impreza, or WRX and drove away a BRZ. Just because you weren't looking doesn't mean Subaru didn't see the BRZ as a way to keep the waning excitement up as they developed the next WRX.

And I have to ask you too...did you read the article?

"Tetsuya Tada, has finally admitted his team is developing a number of ways to increase performance of the showroom version; one of which will definitely make it to production when the 86receives its mid-life upgrade in 2015."

I don't follow Toyota, but Subaru has a habit of doing a refresh after 2 or 3 years, sometimes with an engine change ala the WRX.

Yes, I read the article. The refresh will be in 2015. The new concept where Toyota could drop the boxer and go for a radically different FT86 would be another 3 years or more after that.

This is not happening anytime soon. Most of this is nothing more than speculation. Yes, Subaru and Toyota COULD dissolve their partnership in 5+ years, or they COULD keep it intact. More and more companies are doing partnerships when it comes to sports cars to minimize R&D. So if the FT86 continues to sell well for both Toyota and Subaru, I could see the partnership lasting.

As far as BRZ sales hurting other Subaru sales, I have yet to see any hard proof. Impreza sales last year broke records. Subaru, as a whole, is having another record year in 2013. While it is true that some people may opt to buy a BRZ over an Impreza, I don't think Subaru cares since you are still buying a Subaru. The BRZ also brings people to the store. They may come in looking for a 2 door sports car and end up buying an Imperza/WRX or other vehicle with 4 doors and more legroom.

It is going to come down to sales and demand for 2 doors RWD sports coupes. If the demand is there, Subaru will keep making the cars.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Brzetto

Yes they use turbocharged FA20's.

No, they use the FB architecture that the FA was based off.

[a2cpc]

Originally Posted by thill

Yes, I read the article. The refresh will be in 2015. The new concept where Toyota could drop the boxer and go for a radically different FT86 would be another 3 years or more after that. .

Not according to Tada. He says they already have several prototype variants.

Originally Posted by thill

This is not happening anytime soon. Most of this is nothing more than speculation. Yes, Subaru and Toyota COULD dissolve their partnership in 5+ years, or they COULD keep it intact. More and more companies are doing partnerships when it comes to sports cars to minimize R&D. So if the FT86 continues to sell well for both Toyota and Subaru, I could see the partnership lasting. .

If Toyota decides they are going their own way and it appears they are already testing alternatives to the BRZ, I don't see the BRZ lasting another 5 years with out the Toyota sales.

Originally Posted by thill

As far as BRZ sales hurting other Subaru sales, I have yet to see any hard proof. Impreza sales last year broke records. Subaru, as a whole, is having another record year in 2013. While it is true that some people may opt to buy a BRZ over an Impreza, I don't think Subaru cares since you are still buying a Subaru. The BRZ also brings people to the store. They may come in looking for a 2 door sports car and end up buying an Imperza/WRX or other vehicle with 4 doors and more legroom. .

I don't think it is hurting sales to other Subarus either the numbers don't lie.

Originally Posted by thill

It is going to come down to sales and demand for 2 doors RWD sports coupes. If the demand is there, Subaru will keep making the cars.

I don't think Subaru would even consider keeping the car if they can't sell at least 10,000 a year.

[Suberman]

Toyota owns a big piece of Subaru, they bought out GM's share. This is not just a joint venture.

The BRZ chassis is so obviously capable of handling big power I can't see Toyota abandoning the chassis. Not much would be required to stretch it a bit, make it a full 2+2 and stick some big power up front. The engine bay is way too big for that tiny boxer that's in there now. It would even be feasible to stick a rear transaxle under the trunk floor if really big power were wanted.

[thill]

Originally Posted by a2cpc

Not according to Tada. He says they already have several prototype variants.

Your confusing quotes. He has prototype engines for the refresh (2015) model year. The car itself will still look much the same and be built in a Subaru plant with mostly Subaru parts. The current FT86 is not being killed off in 2 years for a new model, it will be a model refresh.

The other quote Tada made was that they are building concepts for the next generation FT86, where he alludes that the car may not have a Subaru Boxer engine, but none of this is certain.

If Toyota decides they are going their own way and it appears they are already testing alternatives to the BRZ, I don't see the BRZ lasting another 5 years with out the Toyota sales.

Toyota won't be going their own way in two years though. If they decided to, again, it would be much further down the line when they completely revamp the FT86 platform. A refresh FT86 in 2015 is not going to be an entirely new car from the ground up. It will most likely offer another engine alternative to the current one (think TRD/STi model) and the car will still be assembled in a Subaru plant.

You are reading into this too much and mixing up what was said.

I don't think it is hurting sales to other Subarus either the numbers don't lie.

Exactly. And remember, Subaru could make and sell more BRZ's than they do now, they are simply limited to production.

I don't think Subaru would even consider keeping the car if they can't sell at least 10,000 a year.

They are not selling 10K a year now (at least in the US). That was never their intention. They make more than 10K a year now, but most of the models produced go to Toyota.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by a2cpc

Cocoa Beach Bum posted this article from Australia...

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/t...809-2rleu.html


"Tada confirmed to Drive he is already developing the concept for a successor, and hinted that it could be a radically different car, potentially dropping the boxer engine altogether - which raises questions about Subaru's involvement and whether there will be follow-up to the sister BRZ."

Uh oh... Could the BRZ be another footnote in Subaru's history, like the Brat, XT, SVX and Baja?

A 2.5 NA engine producing 250hp could be interesting though.

If they drop the Boxer engine and it's got a setup similar to the S2K with room for a turbo. I'd seriously consider buying one. I'm not a fan of this engine from a DIY maintenance standpoint.

[Brzetto]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

No, they use the FB architecture that the FA was based off.

No it's definitely an FA20 with a turbo on the bottom, Quirt Crawford showed pictures on FB.

[Lonewolf]

....

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Brzetto

No it's definitely an FA20 with a turbo on the bottom, Quirt Crawford showed pictures on FB.

Evidence pls. They are externally identical.

[thill]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Evidence pls. They are externally identical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_Forester#Engines

It is the FA20
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/f...irst-look.html

[tacoss23]

IMO the most likely scenario is that they will try and see cost of production of a larger displacement Boxer engine (new generation), 2.5 is my guess. If that is still costly effective to develop and produce they will go for it, since the "low gravity" formula of GT 86 is working so great and that's one of the aspects that gets praised the most by reviewers and articles. Which translates in sales.

I think Toyota will only consider going for an inline 4 cylinder if it's too expensive to R&D a larger displacement boxer. That being said, it's not bad at all. Look at the Civi Si, it uses the 2.4 inline of the Accord, of course tuned for performance and works great. Specially for aftermarket FI.

Regardless I don't think it's remotely a possibility that Subaru will be left out of this project. Subaru brought a lot of prestige and respect to this platform, and even if Toyota takes over designing the power train for the next generation, it's still Subaru the one that did such a great job for the most praised attributes of this car, which are handling, chassis, suspension and overall feel of how the car drives.