Innovate Stg1 Supercharger with W/M injection

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Sellout

I didn't think about intake manifold tuning before I posted. It could very well be possible that the intake manifold runners are set up in a way that kills low rpm torque. You'd think that boost would make up for that though. Odd.

Intake manifold design matters much less when you have a blower cramming air into it.

[Sellout]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

Intake manifold design matters much less when you have a blower cramming air into it.

That brings me right back to, "it isn't possible to have less torque than stock with this kit". So what's the deal?

[swift996]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

I'll make sure to hook up boost source to the dyno when I go for a dynojet read.

It is making boost down there, my water/meth comes on at 2000 rpm WOT 5th or 6th gear which means it is at least making 4.5 psi.

FWIW if you have data logging capabilities either through EcuTek or simply the Torque pro app, you can log the boost pressure and do a pull out on the open road.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by swift996

I remember when Vortechs were dynoing just below 200whp...

Just give it some time. There are a lot of great kits out there and they all draw on different performance, cost, and maintenance dynamics. The Innovate kit was the best option for me at this point in time.

Originally Posted by Pete

Really? The first blower I got put down 225whp, the second makes 252whp. I don't remember any before that...I could be wrong, feel free to link to a sub 200whp Vortech chart.

I do agree that the innovate kit will get better over time though, we haven't even seen the intercooled kit yet.

Originally Posted by pheoxs

That was on the first blower, the innovate kit has been 'testing' for a year now, I doubt its going to get much more power on this setup. Hopefully the intercooled version will net a decent bumper in power

this was the the tester who lived a mile above sea level so its null for everyone else closer to sea level

you also have to remember this kit is going in for CARB approval on that tune so the more conservative it is the better chance they will get CARB approval, CARB approval costs money and i think they would rather not try twice because they failed the first time because they sold the kit with a more aggressive tune that did not pass the CARB requirement on emmission

they know tuners will get their hands on this kit and show the numbers we want to see they know it will happen so the initial numbers aren't too much to worry about...

[pheoxs]

Originally Posted by Sellout

That brings me right back to, "it isn't possible to have less torque than stock with this kit". So what's the deal?

It is possible. Say down low you make 100ftlbs n/a. With the super charger you would make 120ftlbs from the extra air. But it takes power to spin the unit, what if that takes enough power to drop the net output to 90ftlbs.

Yes the engine is physically making more power but you have less coming out the crank. All superchargers have some parasitic lag, how much though, no idea. Just saying it is possible

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by pheoxs

It is possible. Say down low you make 100ftlbs n/a. With the super charger you would make 120ftlbs from the extra air. But it takes power to spin the unit, what if that takes enough power to drop the net output to 90ftlbs.

Yes the engine is physically making more power but you have less coming out the crank. All superchargers have some parasitic lag, how much though, no idea. Just saying it is possible

It is a combo of that (I think this unit consumes something like 30 hp at max rpm and 6ish psi) + this high comp motor and 91 CA octane not liking that kind of boost down low.

Robi (E85, 105 effective octane?)and the auzzies (98RON, 95 "our-octane") have no problemo what so ever.

I need to have my tuner tune the water meth in the low rpms. He only advanced timing for the meth post 3k rpms which is why you see a divergence of the green and red lines start right at 3k. I'll have it spray at 1 psi and have him try to advance the timing. Maybe I'll even swap out the 5 lb/hr nozzle for the 7 lb/hr nozzle... *gasp*

[Sellout]

The power consumption of the unit is a known quantity. Roughly 30hp at max rpm(15k) and 1.4bar absolute output pressure(5.8psi boost). It's going to be pitifully low at 2000 rpm and 4-5 psi on this motor.

There's something else going on.

Also, the math just doesn't add up with this:

Say down low you make 100ftlbs n/a. With the super charger you would make 120ftlbs from the extra air. But it takes power to spin the unit, what if that takes enough power to drop the net output to 90ftlbs.

Superchargers that are this inefficient just don't exist. They would lose power all over the map, not just at low rpm.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Sellout

There's something else going on.

It is a combo of that (I think this unit consumes something like 30 hp at 7 psi) + this high comp motor and 91 CA octane not liking that kind of boost down low.

What else can you adjust when a motor doesn't like the boost it is being fed?
hint:

[Sellout]

I can completely understand that. Is that what's actually going on?

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Sellout

I can completely understand that. Is that what's actually going on?

On my motor on CA pump fuel with stock header and cats, correct. As many have stated there is only so much you can do with 12.5:1 CR and terrible CA blend 91 octane during the high cylinder pressures and load of 1-2k rpms. This is my opinion on the matter. Don't take it as bible. This is one of the major reasons I am using water/meth as I really don't trust or like (by any stretch of the imagination) CA 91 octane. The gas really is that bad imo.

I can see that loss gone with 93 octane. Hell it is gone in australia and in Robi's E85 car.

I just need to get the meth injecting sooner and the tune adjusted for it. If not, then flex fuel here I come. =)

That being said, it doesn't impact my spirited driving at all as I am at or above 3k rpms (and not in 5th or 6th) if I want to go anywhere in a hurry. I am above 4k all the time on the track.

Cruising and city driving is part throttle and that feels no different than stock.

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

Yes it is the low boost pulley supplied in the stg1 kit. 6-7 psi.

I don't doubt at all that the vortech sc can produce higher peak #'s. That being said people comparing these numbers to vortech are not realizing that we have 2-3 psi to close the gap. Who knows? Maybe we'll get close.

Going to turn up the boost in the future. We'll see what this meth will let me do.

If you look at the fact that this thing is not running out of breath up top...one can imagine that 2-3 more psi could provide decent gains. Crossing my fingers!

Will try to get to a dynojet to confirm numbers. As it stands with the base 7 psi pulley this should be somewhere in the 235-245 whp area on dynojet.

:happy0180:

I've been laughing at all the low power numbers posts because i learned to tune on a uncorrected dynodynamics.... people with bolt on evo's would come in and baseline 230whp, I would tune them and they would make 280whp and act all butt hurt over not making over 300 like their buddy made on topspeeds dynojet... then they would drive it and could not stop going on about how amazing the car felt... then their buddy would show up the next weekend for me to tune them after they got spanked by a car "only" making 280whp.....

I love the shape of the curve on your plots.. it's all very use-able power. Looks like it has the potential to carry out to 8k (with breathing mods). With the right sized header and the smaller pulley it should be awesome.

I am curious if the way it sounds will get to you after a while... not sure I want to hear the whine when im in DD mode.

I do have a few hardware questions:

1. Was the fuel pump required for the kit?
2. Do you know if the smaller pulley requires larger port injectors?
3. Did the kit include a new map sensor?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

...That being said, it doesn't impact my spirited driving at all as I am at or above 3k rpms (and not in 5th or 6th) if I want to go anywhere in a hurry.

That's how I feel too. I don't mind downshifting to pass. I hope you can tune that lower end torque right up with your meth injection though, it's a damned shame about that 91 gas out there.

Even so, your preliminary results look good, 3k to redline is a WIDE powerband. I bet you are having a blast with that.

[robispec]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

I love the shape of the curve on your plots.. it's all very use-able power. Looks like it has the potential to carry out to 8k (with breathing mods). With the right sized header and the smaller pulley it should be awesome.

I am curious if the way it sounds will get to you after a while... not sure I want to hear the whine when im in DD mode.



I do have a few hardware questions:

1. Was the fuel pump required for the kit?
2. Do you know if the smaller pulley requires larger port injectors?
3. Did the kit include a new map sensor?

for gasoline no
we will find this out wendsday (70mm pulley)
not needed you tune the car on the maf

iirc the tuner said the stock map sensor is the same as the one found in a STi

[si]

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=39910&page=9

Another innovate Dyno but doesn't look as bad down low.... And a bit better up top