Stock brakes too weak?

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by swift996

I didn't like the pedal feel of the stock brakes but the 86 is going to have better stopping power than most vehicles on the road.

Interesting. Probably due to your background in vehicles, because the WRX I came from had the squishiest pedal evar. Also, moving to fixed 4 pots up front made the pedal even more solid, especially with a MC brace to prevent firewall flex.

[swift996]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Interesting. Probably due to your background in vehicles, because the WRX I came from had the squishiest pedal evar. Also, moving to fixed 4 pots up front made the pedal even more solid, especially with a MC brace to prevent firewall flex.

Yeah, German cars spoiled me but I typically compare the BRZ to the RX8 I owned and the several S2Ks I've driven (almost owned). The OEM BRZ brakes just don't inspire the same level of confidence that the RX8 and S2K do in braking. They also miss a little bite to me. Nothing some pads can't fix.

In the U.S. our roads are filled with SUVs and sub 4k lb sedans running around. Chances are the BRZ/FRS is going to stop a lot quicker than those. As I added some bolt-ons and primarily suspension upgrades, I felt less safe on the OEM brakes since I was carrying a lot more speed on backroads.

[swift996]

Actually last night I was doing about 55-60mph and some guy on a bicycle decided he wanted to end his life by coming off the sidewalk and into the road. I floored the break pedal and had about 2 feet to him. Scared me and the CR-V behind me but no one was hurt. Wilwoods worked well, had they been OEMs he might have got a love tap.

[infinite012]

The BRZ's OEM brakes feel about the same as the STI's OEM brakes. Vague and inconsistent.

[driftartist]

your brakes are only as good as your reaction time in my opinion. they saved my ass this morning on the way to work...

[SeeSharkySwim]

sounds like a case of the idiot driver rather than subpar capabilites of the stock brake system.

[GTM_Challenge]

I've always felt the FRS brakes were better than the S2000 brakes. To me it seems to be an issue of how the assisted brakes kick in. Ever gotten in a rental car and been surprised at how touchy the brakes are...or gotten in a friends family sedan and nearly slammed your head into the steering wheel because you werent used to the brakes?

A touchy brake pedal doesn't mean much to me, especially in newer cars. A touchy brake pedal to the normal public dictates that the brakes are strong and inspires confidence. People feel safe when test driving the car and will prefer that car to a car with less touchy brakes...but this has nothing to do with braking performance.

The factory brake system on the twins is great. For those tracking, etc - throw some good pads, lines, and fluid on and go have fun.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by atledreier

I can easily hit ABS threshold with my brakes, so tires are more of an issue.

Braker's fallacy.

http://demoroom.physics.ncsu.edu/html/demos/423.html

[SubieNate]

Originally Posted by qoncept

Braker's fallacy.

http://demoroom.physics.ncsu.edu/html/demos/423.html

Huh? The entire point of ABS is to keep things from sliding and transitioning 100% to kinetic friction.

In either case, the brakes have to apply a force in excess of the static force to transition into kinetic friction, at which point the force drops off considerably.

Really not sure where you're going with this. Better tires are 100% the best upgrade to stopping distance you can do for one quick emergency stop.

[qoncept]

Better tires are 100% the best upgrade to stopping distance you can do for one quick emergency stop.

Agreed. But...

Originally Posted by SubieNate

Huh? The entire point of ABS is to keep things from sliding and transitioning 100% to kinetic friction.

In either case, the brakes have to apply a force in excess of the static force to transition into kinetic friction, at which point the force drops off considerably.

The point of the link is that static friction (locked up brakes) is less than sliding friction (not-locked-up brakes). Better brakes can apply more force and continue slowing a car where lesser brakes will just lock them up. Every car in the world can lock up the brakes. Are you saying none of them could use an upgrade?

As I said, I agree the tires are more important. But you can always benefit from better brakes.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by qoncept

Agreed. But...


The point of the link is that static friction (locked up brakes) is less than sliding friction (not-locked-up brakes). Better brakes can apply more force and continue slowing a car where lesser brakes will just lock them up. Every car in the world can lock up the brakes. Are you saying none of them could use an upgrade?

As I said, I agree the tires are more important. But you can always benefit from better brakes.

You upgrade for heat capacity, feel, modulation, etc. If you can exceed the limits of adhesion until braking, different brakes won't really change a thing. Threshold braking will result in the most efficient braking, but most drivers can't do it, and even those that can often can't in a true panic stop. Threshold braking is often easier to do with better brakes that have better modulation, etc but if I run my current brake setup and the OEM with the same pads and tires, my average stopping distance under ABS is going to be the same.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

You upgrade for heat capacity, feel, modulation, etc. If you can exceed the limits of adhesion until braking, different brakes won't really change a thing. Threshold braking will result in the most efficient braking, but most drivers can't do it, and even those that can often can't in a true panic stop. Threshold braking is often easier to do with better brakes that have better modulation, etc but if I run my current brake setup and the OEM with the same pads and tires, my average stopping distance under ABS is going to be the same.

You obviously didn't read the link. Strong brakes can provide more force before the wheel locks up. Get a spring scale and pull a block of wood around your desk with it. Compare the force it takes to pull it around while it's sliding compared to just before it starts sliding. It' science, dude.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by qoncept

You obviously didn't read the link. Strong brakes can provide more force before the wheel locks up. Get a spring scale and pull a block of wood around your desk with it. Compare the force it takes to pull it around while it's sliding compared to just before it starts sliding. It' science, dude.

Sure, in a theoretical world where tire grip is unlimited.

In the real world? No they can't. They can provide more force, which does absolutely nothing to slow the car down faster. The limiting factor is tire grip, which even a marginal brake system can overcome (manifested as tire lockup).

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Sure, in a theoretical world where tire grip is unlimited.

In the real world? No they can't. They can provide more force, which does absolutely nothing to slow the car down faster. The limiting factor is tire grip, which even a marginal brake system can overcome (manifested as tire lockup).

Alright guys. I'll go tell every physicist ever. And my block of wood.

"Nice theory, but brakes are somehow different."