Why Scion FR-S Sales Have Plunged

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by totopo

I agree with you, If you void the warranty, what is the advantage? Im not comparing a new frs and a used miata, but a modded miata and a modded frs. My argument is against everyone who says it is easy to aftermarket add power to the frs. So if you say a modded frs compares favorably to a Mustang, I say, what advantage does that frs have over an s2k?

Originally Posted by PhantomX

How about a used FR-S/BRZ vs used Miata, E36, S2000? That sounds more fair.

I'm curious, myself.

Some people have needs from a car that go beyond the spec sheet. I have owned modified used cars all my life before the FRS and always did my own maintenance, so a warranty wasn't a selling point for me when buying this car. I looked at pretty much every car you could imagine before buying my FRS (Elise, 370z, FD Rx7, e46 m3, Genesis, s2000, z4M Coupe, 135i, Rx8, GTO, Fiesta ST, Evo, etc.)

The biggest reason I didn't go with the s2000 or many of the other cars is because they only had two seats. I've owned an NA Miata in the past, and have spent a lot of quality time with an Elise. I'm having my first kid in May, and wanted to have the option to take him somewhere in my car if needed. Obviously it won't be a baby hauler (We have a Sienna for that), but I needed a car that was at least capable of fitting a baby seat in it. I also dislike convertibles. I know that the S2000 and other cars have optional hardtops, but it's not really the same when comparing to a factory, fixed top coupe.

Like I said, I've owned mostly older cars in the past. I had recently graduated nursing school and purchased my first house, so I wanted a newer car as a gift to myself. I never really considered a Mustang, due to its weight, lack of IRS, fuel economy, and bloated looks. The reason I didn't go with something like the e46 is because it was already pretty hard finding a clean 6-speed coupe. The ones you did find were usually overpriced, or had too many miles. I love the e46, but I couldn't picture spending almost as much money on 10 year old car, when I could buy the FRS brand new for not much more.

In the end, I went with the FRS because it provided me with a newer, lightweight, rwd car that could seat more than 2 people. I love that I can take it to the track, use it as a practical daily driver, and go on drives with my future son. I know some people like the idea of having a tame daily driver, and spending their money on a weekend track toy, but I've done that in the past and don't see the point in it. I wanted a car that I could enjoy every day, especially if I was going to spend +20k on it. I could have waited to buy used and saved even more money, but I didn't want a car that was already thrashed, and I knew this would be one of the few times I could splurge and buy a brand new car just for me.

In short, there is no such thing as a perfect car. There are a lot of personal factors that come into play that influence our decisions, that simply don't apply to other people. That's why I think it's silly when people get so heated in arguments over which car is best. The FRS checked all my boxes, and having a brand new car with a warranty was just an additional bonus for me.

Here are some of the cars I've owned in the past. Kind of all over the place.

1990 Talon TSI


1994 Miata


2005 Srt-4


1998 Neon ACR


2001 Prelude SH


1968 Firebird 400

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by torqdork

Guess I have it backwards as usual having been stuck on 18 since I was 55.

Well, I suppose you could consider them both the same....its a chicken and egg thing.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Mim

This always struck me as kinda strange as just about every other market in the world has at least two trim's for the 86..

It's a Scion thing. They sell one model of everything (Monospec), then have "Special Editions". The only thing you can really pick is your color and transmission, then a few dealer/port added options.

[Deep Six]

I would be surprised if the sales curve isn't performing very close to original expectations. This car was designed to appeal to a specific performance market which frankly has few followers in the U.S. horsepower focused enthusiast community most of whom would never consider a car with a 4 banger. Toyota and Subaru got quite a bit of positive PR in the beginning which is valued in the marketing world as "impressions", a tangible scalable commodity that factors in the overall ROI.

Like it or not, the only way to broaden the appeal is to find more power which frankly would not be easy or in my mind worth while, doing so the official way incurs costs and comprimises that most existing owners would not appreciate. Now what you do the unofficial way is up to you and many have already found out that the platform is MUCH more capable than most realize.

I would offer some advice to the "experts' who like to add road course commentary but your personal experience comes with a page number:
On a typical track with minor modifications not including forced induction and completely street legal, this car can hold it's own with most of the cars mention in this thread. Quoting tracks like VIR (or Sebring) which pay homage to the horsepower gods does not provide a fair representation. The 2 cars below, one street legal and one not, are much closer in performance than you might believe at a neutral track.

I'd love to stay and chat some more but I'm off to get my ass kicked some more by a few Mustangs

[Defuser]

Originally Posted by totopo

a used s2k will beat the crap out of the fr-s at a track. it has double wishbones all around, which makes it easier to mod. I would say the engine is a ton more reliable than the fr-s engine.

The e36 will not be as reliable, but it will be tons faster, especially in the m configuration.

That's kind of why I asked the question. The only benefit I can really see is a warranty. And if you keep the warranty, then stop telling people it is so easy to add power.

Too much emphasis on power and performance. Some just enjoy the beauty and grace in things. I couldn't find a car more beautiful and graceful, within the boundaries of practicality.


It's all subjective, but I find when I look at old Ferraris which have comparatively weak performance numbers, guess what? They are still beautiful.

So I guess for me, aesthetics matters as much if not more than performance numbers.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Deep Six

I would offer some advice to the "experts' who like to add road course commentary but your personal experience comes with a page number:
On a typical track with minor modifications not including forced induction and completely street legal, this car can hold it's own with most of the cars mention in this thread. Quoting tracks like VIR (or Sebring) which pay homage to the horsepower gods does not provide a fair representation.

At my last track day there were a couple of S2000's in my group and I was surprised how well the FR-S was able to keep pace. Lightly modded S2000's pulled 1/2 car length or less in a half mile straight, up to about 120 mph. Not sure what mods the S2000's had other than aftermarket exhaust. I've got full exhaust and tune.

Even if you look at professional laptimes stock at power tracks like VIR or Laguna Seca, the times are surprisingly close.

[Simisimi]

Originally Posted by totopo

I wonder what % of owners actully mod the engine to produce more power. everyone makes it sound so trouble free and easy. There is a reason people like to look at production cars as is, or with very minimal mods. Warantees are super important to a lot of people. People who can only own one car and have to use it to drive to work everyday. If it breaks down, its not just some minor annoyance. It is money, and tons of time trying to figure out how to get to work and how to get it fixed and to and from the shop.

Its not so easy to "just add some power". if you void the warantee and make the car unreliable, really, whats the benefit of it over a used car, which is much cheaper? What advatage does it have over a used s2k? Or e36? Or flying miata?

It all comes down to what you want and the situation you are in I guess. This car is one of 4 vehicles. The 2008 Jeep GC diesel is my other "daily driver" and then there is the 2001 Eurovan for family trips and the 2000 Silverado for hauling wood and stuff. If I only could have one vehicle I would never have bought the BRZ because here in NH it's not possible to get around with RWD at times.

It actually is fairly easy to add power. And doing so definitely adds risk. If you do your homework you can manage the risk and come out the other side with a car that has the power to go with all the stuff we agree on. Great styling and handling and whatnot are fantastic but I wasn't satisfied with 200HP. In fact I started with the AVO turbo at 5PSI then overhauled the exhaust and went to 8PSI. Finally I had the spring adjusted to 9PSI with a retune. It costs more to do things in steps but you get the chance to evaluate reliability and any unexpected side effects. I am so addicted to the outcome that I can't imagine not having done it. Getting under 8lbs/HP makes this car such a thrill to drive. I'm only at 7500 miles and the turbo bolted on at 2000 so time will tell on what reliability is as the miles rack up. If it gives me 60,000 I will be satisfied. No misgivings about the impact on long term.

[Mr.Impreza]

Originally Posted by totopo

a used s2k will beat the crap out of the fr-s at a track. it has double wishbones all around, which makes it easier to mod. I would say the engine is a ton more reliable than the fr-s engine.
.

But I don't go to the track...

This is why I don't understand the point of the argument when people say which car is faster considering most people with these cars don't go to the race track and many won't even mod the car.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Mr.Impreza

But I don't go to the track...

This is why I don't understand the point of the argument when people say which car is faster considering most people with these cars don't go to the race track and many won't even mod the car.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!
I am not trying to shave .0001 seconds off my drive from my laneway to the stop sign half a block down the road!

[totopo]

Originally Posted by Mr.Impreza

But I don't go to the track...

This is why I don't understand the point of the argument when people say which car is faster considering most people with these cars don't go to the race track and many won't even mod the car.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!
I am not trying to shave .0001 seconds off my drive from my laneway to the stop sign half a block down the road!

Bah. I'm not talking about you 2. I think the car does have a niche that makes people happy.

When people compare the fr-s to competitors, people always say you can mod the fr-s to make more power so it is the bestest car ever. I'm saying the vast majority of consumers won't significantly mod their cars for power and they have good reasons for doing so. That it's not super straightforward and that there's a reason people compare stock to stock.

When you start comparing modded Frs to any stock competitor it becomes a totally different situation. For a lot of people, reliability and warranty are very important.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by totopo

People who can only own one car and have to use it to drive to work everyday. If it breaks down, its not just some minor annoyance. It is money, and tons of time trying to figure out how to get to work and how to get it fixed and to and from the shop.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!
Don't know how I missed this before (Must have actually had to spend a few minutes working at that point)
To me my car is a tool. A very nice, shiny, fun one but a tool all the same. It is not a plaything, hobby or showpiece and I need it to do the job I bought it for which is to hold up to the mega miles I put on it each month. Could I track or ultra mod it? Sure! But the concern over risk of breaking my tool out ways the pleasure it would give me to spin around a track or pump $$$$s into heavy mods. I have received loads of lighthearted banter and a few down right angry insults since I don't track because "dude, racecar".
Many guys that bought the car to mod or track just can't seem to grasp that some of us can enjoy the car as is or lightly modded while still using it as a tool.
I do play with my tool yes, but refuse to do it so hard I break it!

[Mr.Impreza]

Originally Posted by totopo

Bah. I'm not talking about you 2. I think the car does have a niche that makes people happy.

When people compare the fr-s to competitors, people always say you can mod the fr-s to make more power so it is the bestest car ever. I'm saying the vast majority of consumers won't significantly mod their cars for power and they have good reasons for doing so. That it's not super straightforward and that there's a reason people compare stock to stock.

When you start comparing modded Frs to any stock competitor it becomes a totally different situation. For a lot of people, reliability and warranty are very important.

haha oh okay, I understand your point

[Braces]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

.
I do play with my tool yes, but refuse to do it so hard I break it!

Are we still talking about the car?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Braces

Are we still talking about the car?

I have been waiting patiently to see who the first person to pick up on that would be!
You get a gold star!!!!