Why Scion FR-S Sales Have Plunged

[Teseo]

Originally Posted by SlowButFun

Nearly everyone DESPISES me here because I'm honest to a fault, but I refuse to lie and not call a spade a spade: The FR-S is an AWFUL daily driver, and that punishment doesn't yield enough power & reward even on the very few track days the car will see (by the very few who will track it).

This is TRUTH as much as it hurts the non-objective - please read the articles cited/watch the video AND REALIZE THESE AREN'T MY WORDS, COMMENTS, REVIEWS, PERFORMANCE/COMPARISON TESTS, ETC., THOUGH I AGREE WITH ALMOST EVERYTHING THAT FOLLOWS:

"A Mustang GT can make the FR-S a small speck in the mirror and keep it there, whether the road is straight or twisty. A Mustang V6 Premium is priced right on top of the FR-S and will whip it, good. Any multitude of ratty used performance cars are truly vehicular methamphetamine capable of deeply embarrassing the guy bringing his $30,000 Scion to track day."

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...14-scion-fr-s/

Can't hang with ANY Mustang.

Maybe it can hang with a Scion TC? In some ways, barely:

"That brings us full circle to the tCs fiercest competitor: its stable mate the FR-S. No matter how you slice it, the tC isn’t as good-looking. It may seat four with relative ease, but the interior isn’t as nice as the FR-S either. It delivers good fuel economy and is plenty of fun on the road, but the appeal of the tC is more pragmatic than emotional. Still, when the numbers are added up the tC delivers 75% of the FR-S’ looks, 85% of the handling and 90% of the performance for 78% of the price. Being the deal hound I am, that makes the tC the better Scion."

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/8-...ison-fr-s.html

And don't dare challenge a Renault Megane, either:

But at least it's a reasonably comfortable, refined driving car. Wait, oops:

"No car is the best car for every situation. The Scion was borderline awful on I75 the previous day, assaulting my ears with tire roar and the rest of me with incessant jiggling. “Steel drum,” I note. My ass grows sore within an hour. The seatbelt cuts into my neck each time I forget to fasten the retaining strap to the left of the headrest. Due to the small windows and lack of a sunroof option, the dark, plasticky interior has the ambiance of a cave, albeit one with red stitching. The needle of the analog speedometer starts off at four o’clock, and even at highway speeds is still pointing towards my left knee. It’s nearly useless, so luckily there’s a digital speedometer in the tach face. One wonders why they didn’t follow Mazda’s example with the RX-8 and drop the analog dial altogether. These endlessly straight highways are not the ideal habitat for an FR-S. Anyone who’ll regularly be driving them is well advised to buy something cushier. Aside from minimal sound insulation and an unyielding suspension, the FR-S includes little beyond the most basic features. There aren’t even audio controls on the steering wheel. Then again, the problem with the audio system’s buttons isn’t that they’re hard to reach. They’re close at hand, but feel cheap and defy logic."

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...06-mazda-rx-8/


But at least it's reliable. Oops. Nope:

"When the car’s owner put the pictures up, noting that he had been in the car when the motor blew and that nothing unusual was happening at the time, he started hearing from other Toyobaru owners and tuners that they’d seen similar issues, often starting with a valvetrain failure. In the case of this particular car, the piston was “in a thousand pieces”, so it’s hard to tell if a valve dropped into it or not.

The engine’s being dissected as we speak for root-cause analysis, but I wasn’t cheered by the number of people who immediately stepped forward to talk about similar issues. As we stood by the smoking car after the failure, the owner started running down all the different ways in which these cars are known to blow up on-track. Apparently, the injector seals wear out, at which point the cylinder “leans” and the motor blows. Or they can have oil pressure issues. And so on.

This is a big deal because much of the GT86’s appeal is based on the idea that you can enjoy it on-track for a long time with low to no running cost."

http://jackbaruth.com/?p=942

This thread is about sales of the frs/brz and the near future. I guess you
Confused and post here and not in the frs/brz vs. section.
Btw the meaning of "drive" is more than stomp the gas pedal.

[PhantomX]

It's weird Wiki claims there's not much sales for the FR-S in the US. Every time we get several FR-S's at my dealership, we run out within a week or two in the middle of winter... in Alaska. The only reason our remaining Hot Lava 2014 automatic hasn't sold yet isn't because it's got 300 miles on it, but because not only was it practically just parked obscurely and not listed on our site, but 90% of our Sales Consultants didn't even know it was in the lot. We just recently put it in the showroom floor, so I'm pretty sure it'll sell in the week or two to follow...then we'll be out of FR-S's for the time being. Since I'm the "Scion Champion" (I don't like that title... Seems too comic book-ish), I've already requested the next batch be mostly manual, not that there's anything wrong with automatics.

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by SlowButFun

Nearly everyone DESPISES me here because I'm honest to a fault, but I refuse to lie and not call a spade a spade: The FR-S is an AWFUL daily driver, and that punishment doesn't yield enough power & reward even on the very few track days the car will see (by the very few who will track it).

This is TRUTH as much as it hurts the non-objective - please read the articles cited/watch the video AND REALIZE THESE AREN'T MY WORDS, COMMENTS, REVIEWS, PERFORMANCE/COMPARISON TESTS, ETC., THOUGH I AGREE WITH ALMOST EVERYTHING THAT FOLLOWS:

"A Mustang GT can make the FR-S a small speck in the mirror and keep it there, whether the road is straight or twisty. A Mustang V6 Premium is priced right on top of the FR-S and will whip it, good. Any multitude of ratty used performance cars are truly vehicular methamphetamine capable of deeply embarrassing the guy bringing his $30,000 Scion to track day."

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...14-scion-fr-s/

Can't hang with ANY Mustang.

Maybe it can hang with a Scion TC? In some ways, barely:

"That brings us full circle to the tCs fiercest competitor: its stable mate the FR-S. No matter how you slice it, the tC isn’t as good-looking. It may seat four with relative ease, but the interior isn’t as nice as the FR-S either. It delivers good fuel economy and is plenty of fun on the road, but the appeal of the tC is more pragmatic than emotional. Still, when the numbers are added up the tC delivers 75% of the FR-S’ looks, 85% of the handling and 90% of the performance for 78% of the price. Being the deal hound I am, that makes the tC the better Scion."

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/8-...ison-fr-s.html

And don't dare challenge a Renault Megane, either:

But at least it's a reasonably comfortable, refined driving car. Wait, oops:

"No car is the best car for every situation. The Scion was borderline awful on I75 the previous day, assaulting my ears with tire roar and the rest of me with incessant jiggling. “Steel drum,” I note. My ass grows sore within an hour. The seatbelt cuts into my neck each time I forget to fasten the retaining strap to the left of the headrest. Due to the small windows and lack of a sunroof option, the dark, plasticky interior has the ambiance of a cave, albeit one with red stitching. The needle of the analog speedometer starts off at four o’clock, and even at highway speeds is still pointing towards my left knee. It’s nearly useless, so luckily there’s a digital speedometer in the tach face. One wonders why they didn’t follow Mazda’s example with the RX-8 and drop the analog dial altogether. These endlessly straight highways are not the ideal habitat for an FR-S. Anyone who’ll regularly be driving them is well advised to buy something cushier. Aside from minimal sound insulation and an unyielding suspension, the FR-S includes little beyond the most basic features. There aren’t even audio controls on the steering wheel. Then again, the problem with the audio system’s buttons isn’t that they’re hard to reach. They’re close at hand, but feel cheap and defy logic."

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...06-mazda-rx-8/


But at least it's reliable. Oops. Nope:

"When the car’s owner put the pictures up, noting that he had been in the car when the motor blew and that nothing unusual was happening at the time, he started hearing from other Toyobaru owners and tuners that they’d seen similar issues, often starting with a valvetrain failure. In the case of this particular car, the piston was “in a thousand pieces”, so it’s hard to tell if a valve dropped into it or not.

The engine’s being dissected as we speak for root-cause analysis, but I wasn’t cheered by the number of people who immediately stepped forward to talk about similar issues. As we stood by the smoking car after the failure, the owner started running down all the different ways in which these cars are known to blow up on-track. Apparently, the injector seals wear out, at which point the cylinder “leans” and the motor blows. Or they can have oil pressure issues. And so on.

This is a big deal because much of the GT86’s appeal is based on the idea that you can enjoy it on-track for a long time with low to no running cost."

http://jackbaruth.com/?p=942

Jack Baruth has hated this car since day one. He has posted multiple articles about how much he loves the Camry SE on the track and he constantly trashes on the twins. The dude is a contrarian for the sake of it. He is absolutely one of the most biased reviewers on the twins.

Anyway, I posted this over at TTAC a week or so ago on an article about the FR-S sales. [That site, in general, hasn't given the car a fair shake. Their one "editor" listed it as one of the worst cars you can buy... yet, he traded in his NA Miata for a Mazda 3 because the Miata was so bad at insulating him from the Toronto winters and had zero space.... hmmm, what car gives you the handling goodness of a Miata but a usable trunk and doesn't freeze you out in the winter? Mazda 3 is obviously the answer!]

"Lets do a little summary.
2012: On sale for half the year, the BRZ and FR-S combined to outsell the WRX by a significant margin, outsell the GTI, 2x the 370Z sales, and 2x the Miata sales.
2013: With a full year of sales, the BRZ and FR-S combined to move 10k more units than the WRX, 2x the GTI, and 3x both the 370Z and the Miata.
2014: The all new WRX on sale for 9 months of the year moves 4k more units than the BRZ and FR-S. The all new GTI on sale for 6 months trails the BRZ and FR-S by 4k units. The Miata moves roughly 1/4th as many units as the BRZ and FR-S.

Considering the practicality that you give up and the fact that the WRX and GTI got some major reworking, why are we flipping out at the volume level of the BRZ and FR-S? The sales trend seems to be following the normal sports car trend of hot at the beginning and a steep drop off a few years later. The Miata did the same thing when the NC came out but no one is out here writing the eulogy for the ND — which just so happens to get less powerful and even smaller — things could get ugly for it despite the drop in curb weight. You have to consider that with small sports coupes, a lot of people get them early and the the niche is mostly satisfied. When they start appearing on the used market with low miles and little wear and tear, going new is tough to justify. Again, the Miata exactly shows this scenario. I remember car shopping for S2000s and Miatas in 2010 and finding 3 year old NC Miatas for 1/2 off the original MSRP was easy. Why would I consider buying new?

Anyway, I took delivery of my FR-S in august. It is the most enjoyable car I’ve ever owned and is among the most enjoyable cars I’ve ever driven*. It fits me like a glove, has just enough space for my daughter in the back when I’m flying solo on the parenting duties. The seats are great, the steering wheel feels great, the shifter is smooth and precise. I test drove the 2015 WRX and 2015 GTI and they were fine automobiles. There aren’t going to be many people that I say that the WRX or GTI was a bad choice compared to the FR-S/BRZ. Those cars truly are amazing at being jacks of all trades. They are totally different animals, though. They feel tall and you feel like you are sitting on top of the chassis. The FR-S/BRZ make you feel like part of the chassis. If you don’t have great, twisty roads, this feeling is largely unnoticed/unvalued. The Miata is the other car that feels like that (in the affordable range, anyway). If you want a slightly more practical Miata, it is hard to beat the FR-S or BRZ.

Another thing to consider is plant capacity. I’ve seen pictures of the XV Crosstrek and the BRZ/FR-S coming down the line nose to tail. I believe that the WRX comes down the same line as well. If you are the product planner on that line that is running capacity, at the beginning of 2014, do you shift more of the volume to the brand new WRX and hot selling XV while cutting the BRZ/FR-S/86 volume or do you hold the volume steady from your 2013 numbers? It makes financial sense for capacity constrained Subaru to build the most of what they can sell for the most money. Flooding the market with BRZs and FR-Ss when the market is generally satisfied makes little sense when there are buyers chomping at the bit to get a new WRX since the previous model was using old, thirsty engines. There aren’t entire lines or plants dedicated to building this car (nor is there a market to support that short of the domestic pony cars). This is why you see it built with 1 engine, 2 transmission choices, and trim lines that amount to base, premium (base + nav,HID), and limited (premium + leather,push button start, heated seats) instead of 4 different engines, 2 transmissions, convertible or hardtop, and trim packages out the nose.

*I’ve driven a V10 M5, CTS-V, 997 911, IS-F and there is a large element of fear, especially concerning one’s ability behind the wheel, with cars with that much forward thrust. On the street, those cars are so capable of going so far outside of the normal street driving envelope that I can’t ignore that fear. I feel like the FR-S strikes an amazing balance of being able to drive spiritedly without being a complete menace to those around me."

[airjonny]

Originally Posted by SlowButFun

Nearly everyone DESPISES me here because I'm honest to a fault, but I refuse to lie and not call a spade a spade: The FR-S is an AWFUL daily driver, and that punishment doesn't yield enough power & reward even on the very few track days the car will see (by the very few who will track it).

This is TRUTH as much as it hurts the non-objective - please read the articles cited/watch the video AND REALIZE THESE AREN'T MY WORDS, COMMENTS, REVIEWS, PERFORMANCE/COMPARISON TESTS, ETC., THOUGH I AGREE WITH ALMOST EVERYTHING THAT FOLLOWS:

"A Mustang GT can make the FR-S a small speck in the mirror and keep it there, whether the road is straight or twisty. A Mustang V6 Premium is priced right on top of the FR-S and will whip it, good. Any multitude of ratty used performance cars are truly vehicular methamphetamine capable of deeply embarrassing the guy bringing his $30,000 Scion to track day."

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...14-scion-fr-s/

Can't hang with ANY Mustang.

Maybe it can hang with a Scion TC? In some ways, barely:

"That brings us full circle to the tCs fiercest competitor: its stable mate the FR-S. No matter how you slice it, the tC isn’t as good-looking. It may seat four with relative ease, but the interior isn’t as nice as the FR-S either. It delivers good fuel economy and is plenty of fun on the road, but the appeal of the tC is more pragmatic than emotional. Still, when the numbers are added up the tC delivers 75% of the FR-S’ looks, 85% of the handling and 90% of the performance for 78% of the price. Being the deal hound I am, that makes the tC the better Scion."

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/8-...ison-fr-s.html

And don't dare challenge a Renault Megane, either:

But at least it's a reasonably comfortable, refined driving car. Wait, oops:

"No car is the best car for every situation. The Scion was borderline awful on I75 the previous day, assaulting my ears with tire roar and the rest of me with incessant jiggling. “Steel drum,” I note. My ass grows sore within an hour. The seatbelt cuts into my neck each time I forget to fasten the retaining strap to the left of the headrest. Due to the small windows and lack of a sunroof option, the dark, plasticky interior has the ambiance of a cave, albeit one with red stitching. The needle of the analog speedometer starts off at four o’clock, and even at highway speeds is still pointing towards my left knee. It’s nearly useless, so luckily there’s a digital speedometer in the tach face. One wonders why they didn’t follow Mazda’s example with the RX-8 and drop the analog dial altogether. These endlessly straight highways are not the ideal habitat for an FR-S. Anyone who’ll regularly be driving them is well advised to buy something cushier. Aside from minimal sound insulation and an unyielding suspension, the FR-S includes little beyond the most basic features. There aren’t even audio controls on the steering wheel. Then again, the problem with the audio system’s buttons isn’t that they’re hard to reach. They’re close at hand, but feel cheap and defy logic."

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...06-mazda-rx-8/


But at least it's reliable. Oops. Nope:

"When the car’s owner put the pictures up, noting that he had been in the car when the motor blew and that nothing unusual was happening at the time, he started hearing from other Toyobaru owners and tuners that they’d seen similar issues, often starting with a valvetrain failure. In the case of this particular car, the piston was “in a thousand pieces”, so it’s hard to tell if a valve dropped into it or not.

The engine’s being dissected as we speak for root-cause analysis, but I wasn’t cheered by the number of people who immediately stepped forward to talk about similar issues. As we stood by the smoking car after the failure, the owner started running down all the different ways in which these cars are known to blow up on-track. Apparently, the injector seals wear out, at which point the cylinder “leans” and the motor blows. Or they can have oil pressure issues. And so on.

This is a big deal because much of the GT86’s appeal is based on the idea that you can enjoy it on-track for a long time with low to no running cost."

http://jackbaruth.com/?p=942

There's a difference between criticism and what you're doing. This is why people like me can't have a legitimate performance conversation.

[jblmr2]

Folks this is a no brainer. This is a sports car! Regardless of price, target market, horsepower, or any other quality you want to attribute to it, it is niche car. Hype and anticipation aside, long term it's not going to appeal the "average Joe". It goes around corners very well, but it isn't a freeway cruiser or a grocery getter, which is what the average Joe needs.


Will it last for a Gen2, I don't know, I hope so. But I'm glad we have a Gen 1. Manufacturers build cars to make money. If the 86 doesn't accomplish that they will discontinue it.

[Lonewolf]

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by SlowButFun

So do you claim an FR-S is as fast in a straight line OR AROUND A TRACK as a V8 Mustang OR A V6 MUSTANG?

Let's hear your prognosis!

[Vracer111]

I've always thought a fair test for any car vs Twins on track would be equalizing the tires used. So the standard to be applied would be the competing car running against a Twin must use Michelin Primacy HP's in its factory size (or closest equivalent). I pity ANY Mustang of ANY performance level trying to go against a Twin - whether in a straight line or on a road course! The more horsepower the better! LOL

[airjonny]

Originally Posted by SlowButFun

LMFAO.

Delusional.

Honestly.

Maybe you're being sarcastic?

The FR-S is SLOW. A V6 Mustang beat its time around VIR in verified runs.

It's not even in the same galaxy as a V8 Mustang.

Ok the Mustang is faster. We get it. What are you trying to prove here?

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by SlowButFun

Genuine thank you for providing a specific, rational, substantive, civil rebuttal, whether you & I agree on any or all points.

I just want to emphasize that while I see that you don't deem Baruth or Kreindler as objective, I don't think anyone can honestly claim that Alex Dykes (who has rarely criticized any of hundreds of vehicles as badly as he did the FR-S), or Michael Karesh are NOT objective and fair.

Alex and Michael leaving TTAC is why I'm rarely there any more. Alex's reviews are from a very consumer reports type perspective. His perspective is 100% valid, too. Yes, for a random joe off the street, the FR-S is not a good choice. There is a lot of compromise that makes it what it is. Those two make up the "is this a practical choice" side of reviews. The twins are not a practical choice. I'd also like to say, as an engineer, I love Consumer Reports and I love the data/service that they provide. Very logical, very straight forward. Baruth should be making up the emotional side of the reviews for TTAC, but he way too often lets his desire to shock and awe readers get in the way.

For example, enthusiasts are supposed to hate the Camry and Panther-based cars. He loves them and even swears the Camry SE is great on the track. Driving enthusiasts should love the FR-S/BRZ because it is such an intimate, visceral car. It had a lot of hype and shockingly good reviews from the start. I can't help but feel that Jack felt like he couldn't join in the chorus of praise because he wouldn't stand out. I even predicted what he'd say about the twins when he did a comparison with the Genesis Coupe and the Miata. Even though the twins basically strike a balance between the two cars, he loved the Miata for be small and light, loved the Genesis for being a good touring car, but hated the FR-S for not having enough power and not being light enough.

Disclosure, I do like a decent portion of what Jack writes. Some of his stuff is absolute genius. I feel like he completely misses the mark on everything he writes about the twins.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by xuimod

And that's why GM needed a government bailout, because their executives sucked.

Perhaps, I never agreed with that either, for any of the companies that received it (auto or otherwise) but that's discussion for another board.

Originally Posted by xuimod

Btw, you took my statement a little bit out of context. I said "It takes years to react to the market? Maybe on the production side but not on the management side."

Management usually makes decisions fairly quickly. But getting the whole company on the same page takes months or years.

Wasn't my intent, but I see how you could take it that way.

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by SlowButFun

LMFAO.

Delusional.

Honestly.

Maybe you're being sarcastic?

The FR-S is SLOW. A V6 Mustang beat its time around VIR in verified runs.

It's not even in the same galaxy as a V8 Mustang.

I think he's saying that the traction is so easy to break with just 200hp, that 300 and 400hp would have traction broken all the time. Just drifting erry'day! :LOL:

[Vracer111]

Originally Posted by SlowButFun

LMFAO.

Delusional.

Honestly.

Maybe you're being sarcastic?

The FR-S is SLOW. A V6 Mustang beat its time around VIR in verified runs.

It's not even in the same galaxy as a V8 Mustang.

Perhaps you missed the part about the Mustang running on Michelin Primacy HP's...

And I'm serious: if you truely want to see how good a vehicles chassis and suspension is in comparison, throw on some Michelin Primacy HP's!

I'm also serious that the Mustang will LOSE. Mu is Mu.... mustang needs more Mu than the FRS to be almost equal....so what happens when there is not enough Mu for the Pony? Pony go Mooo and wander over to graze on the pasture off the road surface!

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by SlowButFun

Nearly everyone DESPISES me here because I'm honest to a fault, but I refuse to lie and not call a spade a spade:

Don't despise you in particular, I'm sure you are a swell guy. However I don't particularly care for broad sweeping statements such as

Originally Posted by SlowButFun

The FR-S is an AWFUL daily driver, and that punishment doesn't yield enough power & reward even on the very few track days the car will see (by the very few who will track it)....

particularly given I have almost 60,000 miles on the car as a daily driver and have had no particular issue with it as such, even with my mid-50's pudgy frame getting in and out of it every day. So, I would say my experience as a DD out-trumps yours, but hey if its not a good DD for you, that's OK.


I think what you and others forget is that it is a sports car, not a race car, and not a luxury sports sedan. I personally couldn't care less if it can out perform these other cars, because I have no need to outrun them or even out-corner them. If I had wanted a car that performed like the others, well I would have bought the others.


Yes, I'm probably in the minority on here, but I would say I represent the pretty average buyer of any sports car (as opposed to the average member of a forum). I drove the car, I liked it, I bought it, I drive it, I'm happy with it. If I wasn't I'd sell it, and buy something else.


As far as track days, only a very small percentage of ANY sports car ever see a track day. If anything that only becomes common after the 2nd or 3rd owner.


It is a niche car and I'm actually surprised they've sold it in the numbers they have.