Your ideas for future sports car market

[madfast]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

The Prius will idle if the traction battery is low though. I guess you could argue that doesn't happen much, but it takes a somewhat decent amount of battery capacity to never have to idle.

it turns on only to charge the battery. once the battery is charged sufficiently it wont turn on. if you want to call that idling then i guess we just disagree on semantics.

What do you mean relying on an inefficient ICE? HSD gets all its power from the gas engine, unless you mean we should move towards plug in hybrids.

precisely. HSD right now is still very much ICE based, but it doesnt have to be and it shouldn't have to be. instead they should take a page out of GM's book and look at what they did with voltec. i feel as if GM looked at the HSD design and simply improved upon it. they both use planetary gearsets, so it wouldnt take much to adapt HSD to run in EV mode at higher speeds. perhaps something as simple as a clutchpack between the ICE and PSD...

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by madfast

it turns on only to charge the battery. once the battery is charged sufficiently it wont turn on. if you want to call that idling then i guess we just disagree on semantics.

precisely.
...

I call it idling because it's still a very inefficient state of operation for the engine. Of course, the motor generators are able to absorb much more power than your typical alternator so it's not nearly as bad, but it is very much a low load scenario. With a mild hybrid system though, it's the same story. A stronger generator to soak up more power when it's necessary to idle to generate power.

I haven't thought much about the potential of full electric drive, but I feel like there is still much untapped potential to mechanical heat engines and liquid fuels. Solid state (fuel cells) and electronics are super nifty, but mechanical engines have a lot going for them, so it'll be very difficult to have electric stuff fully supplant internal combustion, especially in a country like the USA where transportation energy requirements are so high.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I haven't thought much about the potential of full electric drive, but I feel like there is still much untapped potential to mechanical heat engines and liquid fuels. Solid state (fuel cells) and electronics are super nifty, but mechanical engines have a lot going for them, so it'll be very difficult to have electric stuff fully supplant internal combustion, especially in a country like the USA where transportation energy requirements are so high.

pure EVs i dont see ever supplanting the ICE, but hybrids imo will. and by hybrid i also include extended range EVs which are really series hybrids anyways. the original prius wasnt a hot seller, but look at it now. the same i think will happen to the volt.

one curious decision by GM was why did they make the Volt such a boring car? if they had made their first plug in hybrid a sporty car, it would have garnered so much more attention. case in point, Tesla. they came out with the roadster and people noticed. once people noticed, then they came out with the S. if we combined the Tesla thought process, with the engineering and manufacturing might of GM, i truly believe there can be exciting and fun to drive hybrid/electrics. and once people try it out, they may not go back...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvnCgW5tSsc"]Bill Caswell Takes the BMW M3 Electric Pikes Peak Race Car for a Test Drive - EV West - YouTube[/ame]

[serialk11r]

The reason would be that this stuff is expensive and so they want to make the cheapest possible car with the tech. Sporty=more money.

Fun though, is a lot about control. The highest degree of control over the drivetrain that I'm aware of is on manual first gen Honda Insights with manual electric motor regen control (custom installed by users of course). The integration of electric drive offers two paths, automating more functions, and adding more manually controlled functions. There isn't much of a middle ground because a middle ground wouldn't allow the full potential of the car to be reached.

In my mind, a fun but relatively simple way to allow a driver to control a parallel hybrid system would be an NSX concept like setup with electric motors on the front wheels geared "short" for high regeneration capability, gas engine with a motor generator, and a manual transmission of some sort. A paddle on the steering column can control the front motors, and the "regular" drivetrain can be controlled with normal means. For racing you could have a throttle remap so electric power comes on only after the gas engine is maxed out, or you could do a "hold to reserve passing power" button. Lots of fun ways to do it.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

The reason would be that this stuff is expensive and so they want to make the cheapest possible car with the tech. Sporty=more money.

of course i understand what they tried to do, but imo they should have done what Tesla and Fisker did. Wow people with a sports car first, then parlay that into a mainstream model. basically make a halo car. instead, they tried to convince people who would otherwise buy a prius, that their more expensive car is better because you can plug it in, etc. all the while the EV infrastructure in the US is in its infancy and so people just didnt buy into it.

but what if they went with this car instead?

what if they made a plug in "camaro"? what if they made it fast? made it "cool"? Then people wouldnt want it because it makes sense. people would buy it because it pitches a tent in their pants. and it happens to get good mpg as well, so the wife will allow you to buy it...

it took the prius a decade to get where it is now. and the prius doesnt rely on a non-existent infrastructure... so if GM were going to convince people of an EV future, they could have done it with flair. both Tesla and Fisker are struggling. but they have that je ne sais quoi that only a sportscar manufacturer has. they showed how hybrid/evs need not be boring.

[RaceR]

For those who haven't seen this yet. Almost like a sneak peek into the future..

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFNIqxTT_mw&feature=g-all-u"]Porsche 918 Spyder: a Ride In Porsche's Hybrid Hypercar - CHRIS HARRIS ON CARS - YouTube[/ame]

[madfast]

the 918 imo is... meh... i like what it'll do in changing people's preconceived notions of hybrids and EVs, but if you look closely, there is actually very little innovation going on here. carbon tub, V8 that revs sky high, electric motor attached to PDK, Li-ion battery, etc. we've seen all this before, just not in a 700 hp porsche supercar...

instead we need to look at what Tesla is doing and how they will influence the industry. they are the real innovators imo. and toyota investing in tesla? i really hope great things come forth from this... for instance, Tesla is 100% EV focused and toyota is known for their hybrids. what if we combine the EV and battery tech from Tesla, with the proven engineering/manufacturing of a Toyota hybrid? such a car would spank the 918 in every conceivable way. if only...

[rice_classic]

Jaguar C-X75 Prototype (the one with jet turbines as generators!)

1170 ft/lbs of Torque, AWD. Similar power deliver as Volt (4 electric motors, 1 per wheel with fuel burning generators... the turbines!)






[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_vEZ4rHMO4&hd=1"]Jay Leno Drives The Jaguar C-X75 Concept - YouTube[/ame]