Engine Swap: Which Would You Choose!??

[LSxJunkie]

Originally Posted by Night Hawk

Supercharged Corvette engines? In this car? Don't make me laugh. Here is only one engine I would consider to swap into the FT86;



http://fordracingparts123.com/index....products_id=85

• 444 horsepower and 380 lb.-ft. of torque without the aid of forced induction
• Purpose-built Boss engine is based on production 2011 Mustang GT 5.0-liter DOHC V8, heavily modified with unique, Boss-specific parts to withstand all-day thrashing
• Revised intake, CNC-machined heads, lightened valvetrain and strengthened reciprocating assembly result in a race-proven engine meeting production durability standards

“In keeping with the spirit of the original, the new Boss 302 engine achieves its maximum power output at speeds at or above 7,500 rpm. Unlike the original engine, however, low-speed torque and driveability are uncompromised thanks to twin independent variable camshaft timing (Ti-VCT) technology and computer-aided engineering design tools.”






Forget about the 5.0 liter V8 from the IS F (2URGSE)! The 5.0 from the Mustang Boss 302 is more powerful, lighter, less expensive, WAY more durable and reliable, and with even better street manners. In fact he same can even be said for the "base" Coyote 5.0 from the Mustang GT. And the best part all that power without the need for forced induction. Also if you consider that the Boss 302 is EPA rated at 26mpg highway avg while weighing in at ~3,650 lbs (and with a 3.73 rear ratio!) imagine the MPG in a car that was at least 600 lbs lighter and with better aero. Total package hot rod.

Look at the size of those heads and the height of that intake. I actually like the Coyote motor, but I really don't think it would fit. Nor would an LS9 or a Trinity motor. Nothing with a PD blower.

You'd be spending a lot more money on a Boss 302 crate motor than an LS3.

Crate Boss motor is $11,000 and weighs 444lbs.
http://www.fordracingpartsdirect.com...-6007-m50b.htm
Crate LS3 is $6,300 and weighs 415lbs.
http://www.race-mart.com/GM_Performa...-19201992.html
The LS3 is smaller, lighter, simpler, and just as reliable. You lose 14hp. BFD. Make that back with a set of headers anyways.

Originally Posted by Night Hawk

The again if 444 bhp isnt enough... you could always look toward the 650hp and
600 lb.-ft 5.8 liter V8 from the 2013 Shelby GT500. More powerful than an LS9 and with a smoother powerband to boot. Also the most powerful production V8 currently produced on the planet. Just saying lol.

Still I would rather put the 5.0 in the FT86 for so many reasons.

Meh, you could turn up the wick on the LS9 and have the same thing. 650 crank is 3 hour session with EFILive away on an LS9. Most people skip that and go straight for 650 WHEEL with a snout, pullies, and headers. But that's the thing about factory blower motors. You really can't say one is better than another until you've maxed out the stock bottom end. And what's this about a "smoother powerband"? Show me a chassis dyno graph that backs that claim up.


Is the GT500's torque curve noticeably flatter than that?

Besides, that's all academic because I doubt those motors will fit height wise, unless you cut the hood. I don't think any hood would fit.





And I don't know where you got this 8000+ rpm redline malarky, but the Boss 302 redlines at 7500. I've hit it.

[SUB-FT86]

Damn a lot of you guys want monster powered FRS/BRZ? And all I wanted was about 25hp/35tq extra over the stock engine. Lol!!

[Night Hawk]

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

Look at the size of those heads and the height of that intake. I actually like the Coyote motor, but I really don't think it would fit. Nor would an LS9 or a Trinity motor. Nothing with a PD blower.

Even with the tall intake it is still more compact than a 2UR-GSE and that seems to fit fine. Obviously with modifications to the engine bay but fits nonetheless. There is a ton of space in this little cars engine bay once you gut it.

Even with the LS3 being the power house that is, my choice of n/a V8 engines for this car would rank in this order;
1. Boss 302 444 hp 380 lb.-ft
2. "Base" Coyote 5.0 420 hp 390 lb.-ft
3. 2UR-GSE 5.0 liter V8 (from the IS F) 416 hp 371 lb.ft
4. The 4.0 liter V8 from the BMW M3 414 hp 295 lb.-ft
5. LS3 6.2 liter 425 hp 425 lb.-ft
6. the rest lol

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

You'd be spending a lot more money on a Boss 302 crate motor than an LS3.

Crate Boss motor is $11,000 and weighs 444lbs.
http://www.fordracingpartsdirect.com...-6007-m50b.htm
Crate LS3 is $6,300 and weighs 415lbs.
http://www.race-mart.com/GM_Performa...-19201992.html
The LS3 is smaller, lighter, simpler, and just as reliable. You lose 14hp. BFD. Make that back with a set of headers anyways.

If you look at peak HP only yes the LS3 looks competitive. It is no where near as reliable as the Boss motor though and no where near as advanced. It is a great engine, just not what I would put in my car.

I like the boss because it has the best characteristics of both a big V8 when you are on it and a Camry V6 when you are just sitting at idle or putting around town. Not to mention the difference in overall efficiency between it and a simple pushrod V8. Also if you do a little looking you can find a Boss 302 crate engine for closer to $8500 that was just the first link I happened to click that had a good pic lol

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

Meh, you could turn up the wick on the LS9 and have the same thing. 650 crank is 3 hour session with EFILive away on an LS9. Most people skip that and go straight for 650 WHEEL with a snout, pullies, and headers. But that's the thing about factory blower motors. You really can't say one is better than another until you've maxed out the stock bottom end. And what's this about a "smoother powerband"? Show me a chassis dyno graph that backs that claim up.


Is the GT500's torque curve noticeably flatter than that?

Besides, that's all academic because I doubt those motors will fit height wise, unless you cut the hood. I don't think any hood would fit.

I wasn't serious about the Shelby engine at all I was just throwing that in there bc some one mentioned the Viper V10 lol

And honestly I really don't know if the new 5.8 liter in the 2013 shelby will truly be better than the LS9. More powerful stock; yes. Will it be as durable and so forth.. hard to say. The LS9 is one hell of a motor (to say the least!), and it is already proven in the real world. Time will tell I guess. I did read that the new Shelby 5.8 had a flatter torque curve than the LS9 but my guess is that if that is true the difference will be virtually imperceptible.

Originally Posted by LSxJunkie

And I don't know where you got this 8000+ rpm redline malarky, but the Boss 302 redlines at 7500. I've hit it.

Oops you are right. For some reason I thought it was a lot more than my car (2011 Mustang GT with the Coyote). My bad on that one.

[uspspro]

I still think the 2GRFSE is the perfect match.

But I want to give the FA20 a shot with a Rotrex.

[Exhaust]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Damn a lot of you guys want monster powered FRS/BRZ? And all I wanted was about 25hp/35tq extra over the stock engine. Lol!!

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Night Hawk

I'm not sure what you mean buy less common swaps. LS (Corvette) motors are frequently swapped into small Japanese cars like RX-7's, S2000's, 350Z's, and even Miata MX-5's. Swapping other Japanese engines in is even more common. None of these cars have had a 5.0 Coyote/Boss swapped into them (won't fit) making it the much less common swap in my mind. The LS engines are great engines, no doubt about that, but they are nothing to get excited about without either A: forced induction or B: huge displacement. The Ford 5.0 delivers a huge punch and great value in a small displacement with extremely modern tech and no blower required.

Just saying anyone who does or talks a bout a swap usually goes with a LS, Honda or 2JZ motor. you dont see anyone swap in say a 260hp turbo ecotec or a Mustang 5.0 or something of the like.
I was just saying if i were to do a swap i'd swap in a motor that was NOT a 2JZ, Honda or LS motor.

[Night Hawk]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

Just saying anyone who does or talks a bout a swap usually goes with a LS, Honda or 2JZ motor. you dont see anyone swap in say a 260hp turbo ecotec or a Mustang 5.0 or something of the like.
I was just saying if i were to do a swap i'd swap in a motor that was NOT a 2JZ, Honda or LS motor.

Oh so you were agreeing with me lol. I'm sorry I totally didn't get it now I see what you are saying.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Damn a lot of you guys want monster powered FRS/BRZ? And all I wanted was about 25hp/35tq extra over the stock engine. Lol!!

LOL, same.

[LSxJunkie]

Originally Posted by Night Hawk

If you look at peak HP only yes the LS3 looks competitive. It is no where near as reliable as the Boss motor though and no where near as advanced. It is a great engine, just not what I would put in my car.

I like the boss because it has the best characteristics of both a big V8 when you are on it and a Camry V6 when you are just sitting at idle or putting around town. Not to mention the difference in overall efficiency between it and a simple pushrod V8. Also if you do a little looking you can find a Boss 302 crate engine for closer to $8500 that was just the first link I happened to click that had a good pic lol

M-6007-M50B Crate Engines from Jegs, LateModel Restoration, Summit, AmericanMuscle, RaceMart, CJ Pony, and FordRacingPartsDirect are all $10,300-$11,500. I have no idea where you're getting brand new Boss 302 Crates for $8500 for. You may be looking at the M-6007-Z363FT, which is a pushrod 70s crate motor.

In contrast, GMPP 19258770 Crate Engines from Pace Performance, RaceMart, Summit, Superior Chevrolet, and CityCrateMotors are anywhere from $6,100-$6,700.

I don't know where you keep bringing this reliability issue up from. I have been arms deep in my fair share of LS motors and I know a lot of road race mostly stock LS3 cars. The only ones that break are the ones with R-Comps in sustained high G turns (1.2G+) because of oil starvation. Solution is to add a real dry sump. Use the money you save against the price of a Boss motor. I don't know where you heard stories of these stock LS3 cars that are blowing up left and right though.

On the power issue...

Bone Stock LS3

High altitude (Colorado) stock LS3 in a Camaro.


Bone Stock Boss 302 (upper curve is with Steeda CAI and tune)


And another one (upper numbers are with Kooks LTs, Kooks exhaust, and a tune)


Really, one of those engines is crap below peak rpm? Both torque curves are nice and flat. The Boss motor actually sacrifices approx 30lbs/ft for about 10hp. You make up for that by spinning the extra 1000rpm. Result? Stock Coyotes(in any form) and stock LS3s have the exact same driving manners around town. They also both idle smooth under 1000rpm, will cruise on the highway at 80 at 2k (or 55 at 1500), and will last, with spirited driving but regular maintenance, to 150k+ miles. Again, tell me stories about how stock LS3 cars are idling like shit and breaking up under load.


I'm starting to think you don't know much about LS motors beyond what you hear from Ford guys.

[Night Hawk]

Easy killer, I don't want to turn this into a ford vs chevy debate. I never said LS motors are blowing up left and right. LS motors are ALL great, particulary the LS7 and LS3 (in my opinion) its just not what I would choose for this application. I like the Boss motor even more, and would rather pay $11,000 for it than have an LS3. For this specific project. You are just going to have to live with that lol. Then again I would also MUCH rather haven LS9 than a Boss 302 engine in this car, and I would MUCH MUCH rather have a brand spanking new Corvette ZO6 than an FT86 with ANY motor lol. Hell I'd take a 500 hp Z06 over a 650 hp GT500

I know the LS3 rocks. I just like the Boss even more. OK?????

[ZDan]

The Ford engine will have a much higher c.g., you know. Not likely to fit, anyway...

But anyway, the problem with the FR-S/BRZ platform is that even with a very short 2.0 flat-4, the weight distribution is 53/47 with two occupants and a full tank. It'll be 55/45 with a driver and half a tank. Just about any engine swap is going to move the c.g. forward a fair amount, not so good for putting down serious power...

[MtnDrvr86]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

Just saying anyone who does or talks a bout a swap usually goes with a LS, Honda or 2JZ motor. you dont see anyone swap in say a 260hp turbo ecotec or a Mustang 5.0 or something of the like.
I was just saying if i were to do a swap i'd swap in a motor that was NOT a 2JZ, Honda or LS motor.

Thats not a bad idea. It would be a better pontiac/saturn solstice/sky then gm made lol Not that they were terrible, I actually enjoyed the Sky Redline I drove, they were just horribly impractical, even with the top up.

[LSxJunkie]

Originally Posted by Night Hawk

Easy killer, I don't want to turn this into a ford vs chevy debate. I never said LS motors are blowing up left and right. LS motors are ALL great, particulary the LS7 and LS3 (in my opinion) its just not what I would choose for this application. I like the Boss motor even more, and would rather pay $11,000 for it than have an LS3. For this specific project. You are just going to have to live with that lol. Then again I would also MUCH rather haven LS9 than a Boss 302 engine in this car, and I would MUCH MUCH rather have a brand spanking new Corvette ZO6 than an FT86 with ANY motor lol. Hell I'd take a 500 hp Z06 over a 650 hp GT500

I know the LS3 rocks. I just like the Boss even more. OK?????

Okay cupcake. You just brought up a couple of issues that really don't think exist, like the reliability and the street manners of stock cars.

BTW, I <3 ur car. Srsly. I test drove a 2011 GT and my buddy's Boss... and was about 3 seconds away from being a brand traitor. But I stick with what I know. And I know my way in and out of an LS and a T56/TR6060.

[Night Hawk]

With the reliability issue what I was really alluding to is durability under abuse, and not for drag racing I meant continuous lapping at the track. A stock LS3 or a stock 'base' Coyote 5.0 will theoretically break long before the stock Boss motor under racing conditions. Sure you could build an LS3 up to be as tough as the Boss motor and even more powerful if you wanted, and people do just that all the time, but the Boss motor is track ready as is, with a warranty.