Voiding warranties?

Didnt know how exactly to search for this.

I want to put a muffler delete on my car, if I ever get an issue with the car and need to bring it to the dealership, am I okay in swapping back the original exhaust before heading to the dealership without them knowing and potentially voiding the warranty? I ask because I'm not sure how dealerships work in regards of knowing about mods unless they see it.

I live in Canada BTW, and to my knowledge it's not like the U. S. whereby the dealer has to prove that the part caused the issue with the car, this is why I'm asking.

Again, didn't know how exactly to search for such a specific question so sorry if it's been answered.

[swarb]

Ask in the canada forums?
They can't void your warranty. They can only deny you warranty work if they feel your modification affected your warranty claim.
Your warranty can be only be void when it passes the warranty date/mileage limits.
I'd take everything related off if I were to do any warranty claim. Ie, engine problems, take everything engine related off. Tail lights problem? I'd leave the exhaust on.

[Malt]

Originally Posted by swarb

Ask in the canada forums?
They can't void your warranty. They can only deny you warranty work if they feel your modification affected your warranty claim.
Your warranty can be only be void when it passes the warranty date/mileage limits.
I'd take everything related off if I were to do any warranty claim. Ie, engine problems, take everything engine related off. Tail lights problem? I'd leave the exhaust on.

While I can't imagine its any different in Canada than it is here in the US but you should be really careful about giving advice when it comes to laws and different countries.

What's true here in the US very well could be very different in another country. The Mangnuson-Moss Warranty Act is great for our protection but that has absolutely zero relevance to someone outside of the US.

Furthermore, deliberately returning your car to stock to get warranty work when the failure is related to what you've done is fraud. Example: If your certain that your aftermarket exhaust didn't cause your knock then you shouldn't worry about taking it off, but if you've blown your engine because you ran a turbocharger and you take that off in an attempt to get a new engine under warranty, that makes you a scumbag. This is exactly why its such a hassle to get honest warranty work.

OP: I'd check for your countries laws, they very well could be very different than what is relevant in the US.

[Jesse36m3]

Originally Posted by Malt

Example: If your certain that your aftermarket exhaust didn't cause your knock

[swarb]

Originally Posted by Malt

While I can't imagine its any different in Canada than it is here in the US but you should be really careful about giving advice when it comes to laws and different countries.

What's true here in the US very well could be very different in another country. The Mangnuson-Moss Warranty Act is great for our protection but that has absolutely zero relevance to someone outside of the US.

Furthermore, deliberately returning your car to stock to get warranty work when the failure is related to what you've done is fraud. Example: If your certain that your aftermarket exhaust didn't cause your knock then you shouldn't worry about taking it off, but if you've blown your engine because you ran a turbocharger and you take that off in an attempt to get a new engine under warranty, that makes you a scumbag. This is exactly why its such a hassle to get honest warranty work.

OP: I'd check for your countries laws, they very well could be very different than what is relevant in the US.

I only mentioned what "I'd" do. Not what he should do. It's a very gray or grey area LOL. The op is aware that he is from Canada. So what kind of fraud would it be? And who is it up to, to prove if it was?

[Malt]

Originally Posted by swarb

I only mentioned what "I'd" do. Not what he should do. It's a very gray or grey area LOL. The op is aware that he is from Canada. So what kind of fraud would it be? And who is it up to, to prove if it was?

Its not a very grey area, its pretty black and white. Modifying vehicles is a choice that an owner makes. Returning it to stock when taking it to a dealer to get warranty work is in essence if fraud IF what you modified caused the issue. If it didn't cause the issue then there is no reason to return to stock. Pretty cut and dry.

Ethically its wrong and legally it is wrong as well as you would be defrauding a company to provide a service you were not entitled to in the event that your modification caused the issue. Will someone who modifies a car and returns to stock to get repairs for something they broke get caught? Maybe or maybe not, but it doesn't make it the right thing to do, but that's really not the point. The point is that as long as there are people who do stuff like this it only makes it harder for people with legitimate warranty claims have to deal with hassles they shouldn't have to.

Also, of course the OP knows he's from Canada, what I'm saying is that the laws in Canada could very well be different than in the US and stating what is true for the US isn't necessarily helpful to someone from a different country. The fact that they can't void a warranty, the Mangnuson-Moss Warranty Act, doesn't apply to the OP as that's applicable to the US only.

[swarb]

@Malt So what kind of fraud is it? And who is it up to, to prove if it was? LOL.

Deal with it in your own way. I will do it my way.
I had credit guy at subaru try to sell me extended warranty and tell me that servicing my own car "voids the warranty". We spent 30+ minutes arguing over this warranty bs, I wanted my car and to get out of there already so I just said, "show me how servicing my own car voids me warranty IN WRITING, and I will show it to my attorney." he shut up, and I was out within 5 minutes.

The warranty work I've done was- interior auto-dimming mirror that turned black, which was rejected as a "wear item" from sun exposure.(ITS INSIDE THE CAR!) Also an ecu that was "replaced" and then I checked it, it was the same one with the same scratches I put on it!(they robbed their parent company lol). Every car I've done service or bought parts for, at Infinity, Lexus, Nissan, Toyota, Mercedes and now Subaru, I've caught mistakes/shady dealings from the service/parts people trying to pull a quick one on me. It's not always a you vs them mentality, but they are in the business to make money and to convince people they need something they don't, so it helps their bottom line.

It's up to me to prove I did my service if they ask.
It's up to them to prove I am trying to defraud them or not.
Grey or Gray? Black right or white right? Interpret it your own way. I'm over it.

p.s. exhaust after all the sensors has no effect on knock. by you assuming it can affect it, it means you side with the dealer and would deny warranty based on an exhaust which has ZERO bearing to the front side of the engine.

[Malt]

Originally Posted by swarb

@Malt So what kind of fraud is it? And who is it up to, to prove if it was? LOL.

Deal with it in your own way. I will do it my way.
I had credit guy at subaru try to sell me extended warranty and tell me that servicing my own car "voids the warranty". We spent 30+ minutes arguing over this warranty bs, I wanted my car and to get out of there already so I just said, "show me how servicing my own car voids me warranty IN WRITING, and I will show it to my attorney." he shut up, and I was out within 5 minutes.

The warranty work I've done was- interior auto-dimming mirror that turned black, which was rejected as a "wear item" from sun exposure.(ITS INSIDE THE CAR!) Also an ecu that was "replaced" and then I checked it, it was the same one with the same scratches I put on it!(they robbed their parent company lol). Every car I've done service or bought parts for, at Infinity, Lexus, Nissan, Toyota, Mercedes and now Subaru, I've caught mistakes/shady dealings from the service/parts people trying to pull a quick one on me. It's not always a you vs them mentality, but they are in the business to make money and to convince people they need something they don't, so it helps their bottom line.

It's up to me to prove I did my service if they ask.
It's up to them to prove I am trying to defraud them or not.
Grey or Gray? Black right or white right? Interpret it your own way. I'm over it.

p.s. exhaust after all the sensors has no effect on knock. by you assuming it can affect it, it means you side with the dealer and would deny warranty based on an exhaust which has ZERO bearing to the front side of the engine.

Your issues with a shady dealer are really of no relevance to the discussion of fraudulently gaining warranty from through deceptive practices such as removing modifications to gain service.

Since you keep going on about what kind of fraud.

In law, fraud is deliberate deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain. Fraud is both a civil wrong (i.e., a fraud victim may sue the fraud perpetrator to avoid the fraud and/or recover monetary compensation) and a criminal wrong (i.e., a fraud perpetrator may be prosecuted and imprisoned by governmental authorities). The purpose of fraud may be monetary gain or other benefits, such as obtaining a drivers license by way of false statements.

Like I said before, you may get caught. You may not. The absence of getting caught doesn't change the fact that it is fraud. I personally don't care what you do with your car, but suggesting that its ok to remove modifications before taking it to a dealer is certainly bad advice at best.

[Tcoat]

There is absolutely no Canadian law that is equivalent to the Mangnuson-Moss Warranty Act. The Business Protection Act that includes warranty requirements really just says that the conditions of warranty must be established prior to sale and explanatory materials must be made available to purchasers.
So... read all that warranty material that came with the car very, very closely!


Now, what we do have that the U.S. doesn't is another level that we can take warrenty claims to if the dealer or manufacturer won't play nice. Purchasers of vehicles either new or up to four model years from new have access to the Canadian Automobile Manufacturers Vehicle Arbitration Program which offers free arbitration to consumers embroiled in warranty disputes with manufacturers. CAMVAP www.camvap.ca can (and often do) order repairs or even vehicle return in certain cases. In the couple of cases we have seen on here where warranty was refused for bearing failure even though proof of service was provided I would be willing to bet that CAMVAP would have ordered the repairs completed.


Oh and by the way:

[swarb]

@Malt It wasn't one shady dealer. It was ALL of them. The ecu problem? Mercedes. The Dimming mirror? Lexus. Wrong oil filter and double washers on the oil drain bolt? Infiniti. You'd think the premium brands offer better service, but from my experience, they don't, they just have free coffee and snacks.

Caught for what? Who is going to pursue me? My car is bone stock
I am not telling him to take off whatever broke his car if that indeed happen.
I am telling him it is best to keep your car stock if you plan to do any warranty claim. It's a game and it's up to you to decide how you want to play it. My personal experiences have not been good, so IF I were to take my car in for any kind of warranty work. I would make sure to take off my exhaust so that someone can NOT wrongfully misinterpret it as the cause of the knock.
If a turbo blew my engine, I wouldn't take it in, I'd just take the loss.

Warranty claim problems are not from people modding their cars are trying to defraud the system. Less than 1% of people even mod their cars(this car is different). It's from people not maintaining their cars and continue driving when check engine lights come on, or noises present themselves. I have a friend who has a kia, I ask him, when was the last time you've changed your oil? "I don't care, it has a 100k warranty."

Just to clarify because people are bringing the word fraud up without understanding Canadian context. I asked this question not because I feel like an axle back muffler delete will cause issues with a car (if this was the case I'd bite the bullet and accept the damages of the car) , but because most Canadian dealerships are strict ie: get an exhaust and there's no more free oil changes for you or no more free servicing or if an engine blows (not by the exhaust) you're Sol. Shit I even think if you've got a condensated taillight, in Canada the moment they see an after market part they will flip. Or so I've been told.

I can call my dealership and ask them but I don't want to be put in a precarious situation whereby they know I'm in the market of modding the car in the event that my dealership is like what I just described above.

Maybe I'll rephrase my question because this has gone too far in the direction of the ethics of what I ought to do for the dealerships which frankly I'm not concerned with, is there any way a dealership can tell (maybe by means of the ECU or something) if I've had a muffler delete attached to my car?

Part of the reason this has gone in different directions is because of the fact that my original post wasn't specific enough and for that I apologize. Hopefully the above question makes it a little better.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ButeraFRS

Just to clarify because people are bringing the word fraud up without understanding Canadian context. I asked this question not because I feel like an axle back muffler delete will cause issues with a car (if this was the case I'd bite the bullet and accept the damages of the car) , but because most Canadian dealerships are strict ie: get an exhaust and there's no more free oil changes for you or no more free servicing or if an engine blows (not by the exhaust) you're Sol. Shit I even think if you've got a condensated taillight, in Canada the moment they see an after market part they will flip. Or so I've been told.

I can call my dealership and ask them but I don't want to be put in a precarious situation whereby they know I'm in the market of modding the car in the event that my dealership is like what I just described above.

Maybe I'll rephrase my question because this has gone too far in the direction of the ethics of what I ought to do for the dealerships which frankly I'm not concerned with, is there any way a dealership can tell (maybe by means of the ECU or something) if I've had a muffler delete attached to my car?

Part of the reason this has gone in different directions is because of the fact that my original post wasn't specific enough and for that I apologize. Hopefully the above question makes it a little better.

Don't know where you are at but I have never heard about dealers refusing service for mods. Yes they will not cover warranty if the mod caused the issue but flat out refusal of everything does not sound normal. Hell, the Mitsu dealer (that bit the big one at any other form of customer service) that I got my Lancer from did the alignment after I lowered it for free as part of my regular service. Maybe you or somebody you know had an issue but to say they are all "strict" is just not realistic at all.
If you read my post above you know you also have another route you can take if you have an issue with the dealer and warranty.
Pull the warranty documents out of your car (or desk, or wherever you have them) and read them! They are very clear as to what can and can not void your warranty.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by Malt

Returning it to stock when taking it to a dealer to get warranty work is in essence if fraud IF what you modified caused the issue. If it didn't cause the issue then there is no reason to return to stock. Pretty cut and dry..

Not so black and white.
I have read numerous stories on this forum of someone with an intake mod or some other very mild mod.
When they needed the dealer to have a look at the engine the dealer TOLD THEM to return it to stock because the mods mess with their diagnostic equipment and can skew the results.
A perfect example is the intake screwing with the MAF readings.

So I Guess a dealer TELLING you to remove the mods and return it to stock before bringing it in is also fraud?

Now yes - if you blow an engine with a turbo, and take the turbo off and have it towed to the dealer - definitely fraud.

So there is a bit of gray in there.

So I don't mean to bring this thread from the dead.

I called my dealership and they said anything other than TRD as an axle back exhaust could void my warranty.

The ethics of warranties doesn't concern me. He mentioned something about these cars having "black boxes" which might figure out if you've ever had an aftermarket thing installed.

My question: do these cars have these black boxes and if yes (and even if no) is there any way they would know if I had an axle back exhaust installed say if I bring it into them after changing it back to stock.

Again you can call this "fraud" all you want, anyone who knows dealerships know they try to fraud you out of warranties anyway and anyone who knows the mechanics of a car knows that mufflers though they may affect back pressure (and even then there's the argument that cats make all the bp),have little to no effect on the engine and only really deal with sound. So just to avoid any other posts that don't answer my question I just wanted to state the previous.