How cheap would the factory ~250hp 86/FRS/BRZ need to be for you to trade in?

[mit_peid]

This 86/FRS/BRZ is great, but I've been willingly spending a lot of money on upgrades without any real improvement in performance (I'm talking HP). The idea of spending ~$5000+ on either a SC or turbo is an interesting idea, but I'm probably too much of a wuss to pull the trigger because I don't want to void my warranty. But if either Toyota, Scion, or Subaru came out from the factory with a 250hp version of their car for $30K, I would seriously consider trading in my FRS for a new upgrade. I understand we're just talking about hypotheticals here since we'd likely not see a FI-version from factory anytime soon, but what is your maximum $ threshold for trading in your current twin for a super 250hp twin from the factory?

[Adeets]

Take your pick of an FI choice, find its price, double it + 25% now add that to the most expensive version of the car brand of your choice (BRZ ltd, gt86 blah blah, FRS 10 edition) and that will be the cost of a factory 250whp version of your 86.

[Adeets]

So for a BRZ it would be around 40k USD.

[King Tut]

I would not trade my BRZ in for another 50 hp, no matter the price.

[mit_peid]

Originally Posted by Adeets

Take your pick of an FI choice, find its price, double it + 25% now add that to the most expensive version of the car brand of your choice (BRZ ltd, gt86 blah blah, FRS 10 edition) and that will be the cost of a factory 250whp version of your 86.

How did you come up with those two highly scientific fudge factors of 2x and 25%? Wouldn't Toyota/Subaru have some advantages in economies of scale?

[Adeets]

Development, parts and profit margin, look at the difference between a wrx and an STI, it's about 10-12k, more HP = more heat, so oil cooler, bigger breaks, bigger tires, new rims, new PVC system, new headers, or new intake... If you've ever modded a car you know these must change with more HP. Also remember they have to keep the reliability the same... It all costs money. And they need a profit. It's a business not a charity.

[mit_peid]

Originally Posted by King Tut

I would not trade my BRZ in for another 50 hp, no matter the price.

@King Tut, maybe 50hp is a bit on the low side (esp compared to your build), but the intent of the poll was really to get the community's sense of value in a factory turbo. On a side note, with the Genesis 2.0T putting out ~270hp we can probably expect something in that ballpark in a factory turbo.

[Dezoris]

32k would be a magic number.

[dabocx]

Like others have said such a car would have to come with bigger brakes and cooling along with a mountain of R/D to make sure its reliable. And pass EPA standards

It would also most likely come with a better interior and suspension setup, before you know it itll be 40k.


Subaru/toyota are not just going to slap F/I on to a car and sell it to you on the same suspension/brake/cooling setup as a stock car EVERYTHING would have to be reworked and tested.

[circuithero]

I think you have a pretty naive notion (no offense intended) of what it takes to make something like this happen. No way in hell are you going to get a 270hp, 2800lb car for 30~32k, especially from the twins.

Why is that? Well lets look at it from an engineers perspective. First and foremost, a feasibility study has to happen to make sure a project like this would not only be economically feasible but have a chance of being profitable. This is most likely where this idea would be shut down by any smart project manager. Why is that?

Well, first of all you are looking at an already small select portion of a smaller section of a market, the sports car market. You know what is profitable? Corollas, Civics, Cayennes. In fact, for all the 911 die hard fans, what saved Porsche a decade ago was not the Boxster, not the 996 911, it was the Cayenne. Because for every mid-life crisis guy looking to test the hair on his chest there are 1000+ A to B drivers. This trend is only continuing as less younger people are driving and of those that are, are looking for something simple, cheap and with navigation and iOS integration. Sports car are very rarely profitable. Sports cars are more traditionally used as marketing exercises with halo cars (ala GTR) and to aid the perception of a company: which is exactly the purpose of the twins. Nobody wants to say I own a car from the most beige, gray, bread and butter company. This is the main reasons manufacturers participate in racing, win on Sunday and sell on Monday.

Either way, there is no doubt that Toyota invested mega-cubic dollars to R&D and develop this car. It's very good, it's been hyped up for over 5 years - coincidentally Toyota had no proper sports cars and was often quoted as being the most bland and boring auto manufacturer (while maintaining #1 profitable spot for many years in NA). My personal bias tells me that Honda has quite decidedly snatched the boring auto leader from Toyota. Regardless, this car was a huge gamble and I'm sure the manufacturer will take a couple years, to hopefully, maybe break even after all the R&D and development; provided the car continues to be relatively popular. Now if you notice, a lot of journalists who have tested the TRD concept (no added power) have come away with the - "Yea its faster...but...it kinda lost that fun, approachable nature". And therein lies the crux! Mind you we are already talking about the miniscule sports car market and how many people in that market truly want to race or something harsh? Maybe 5/100? 5/1000? The same reason the ITR was non successful in the NA market, for every one of the dedicated enthusiasts who wants a race car for the street, 1000's do not and there are no enough of us to fund and offset the costs associated with such a project.

Well why would it be so expensive in your opinion? Full Blown can do it for 4.5k right? As a manufacturer, you have no idea how much red tape is surrounding each car! There is emissions, warranty, reputation, recalls, lawsuits, crash safety standards...etc, etc, etc. The list is endless. Why was the 350z so much heavier than the Rx8, despite being smaller in dimensions? Why is the Genesis so heavy? Torque. Torque brakes everything. You add torque to a car, a car mind you that they want to do no warranty work on for 5 years (because then any chance you have of making profit on the car is gone) and you need to beef up EVERYTHING. Suddenly, you need more clutch, bigger driveshafts, sturdier differential, bigger brakes...etc. Suddenly your turbo twin that was supposed to be a great car, is a 3200lb pig that has not playful spirit of its predecessor and the reason the original twin was selling so well. Boost adds more points of failure, extra heat and you would not believe the amount of testing and iterations that a manufacturer has to go through. You have to test in cold climates up north, in desert climates, in humid climates, for 100k+ and the entire time you are paying engineers, drivers...etc. Then you have to apply for emissions, tune for economy..etc. All those development costs are then passed unto the consumer. Suddenly the guy's who were shouting and crying for more power are backing away, "Well I would've paid 32k for a 270hp, 2800lb car, but 40k for that pig? Hell no, I would rather tune the base FRS...".

Not to mention the hierarchy within a manufacturer. The BRZ is a light, relatively quick car. Add a bit of power and tire and suddenly its competing and breathing down the neck of the STi and that is something no manufacturer wants.

This is an ENTRY level sports car and it will stay that way, the same reason the miata has been relatively successful. Because for every guy who wants to boost the miata, there are a 1000 who are content driving the car the way it is. You think the mazdaspeed miata was a profitable project? Hell no. That car only added what, 40hp? Via unreliable IHI turbos?

I am one of the guys who tracks and autox's. If I was working for Toyota I would never greenflag a project like this because I have seen this cry wolf scenario before.

[mit_peid]

Originally Posted by circuithero

I think you have a pretty naive notion (no offense intended) of what it takes to make something like this happen.

No offense taken and in all honesty I wouldn't consider myself too much of a car guy before owning a FRS (and really don't know much about turbos). However, I am an aerospace engineer by profession so I know a bit about requirements, R&D, bringing systems into production, and the cost of testing (and also about government red-tape and politics but that's for another thread on another forum).

Appreciate the long thorough response. I don't think a factory turbo will happen in the coming years (or ever for the twins), but maybe just wishful thinking on my end.

[mit_peid]

Its kind of interesting the responses to this poll though... you got most people saying they wouldn't trade in their twin and you have others saying it won't happen for less than ~$40K cause of various reasons (reliability, R&D, EPA, etc.), but then if they were to offer it for say $32-35K it sounds like it'd be a steal! Well I guess Toyota/Subaru would need to take in some lessons learned from the S2000 prior to going down that path.

[tonyfrs86]

who says it needs to be turbo or supercharged? what if they dropped in a newly developed engine down the road? maybe even increase it to 2.5 liters or something

[jamesm]

I wouldn't buy factory forced induction. It's always better to just buy aftermarket from the start, Better components and you don't just end up buying two kits in the end. Lower stock compression would be nice, but pistons and rods are cheaper than depreciation.