Cars balance

[Atticus808]

just wondering, if you do minor mods like changing the exhaust or adding carbon fibre bits, would that throw the balance of the car off quite a bit?
I remember doing centre of gravity calculations in school, and it can change it a lot, so I just want to see what everyone else thinks.

also, beginner rwd question. I've only had a bit of seat time in a 335i and c63 AMG, so I'm not too familiar with rwd since I daily drive a fwd. I understand that the frs and brz have amazing handling and balance, but what happens if you accelerate in a turn? wouldn't the back end always come loose?

[FRiSson]

Not impressed with carbon fiber. As a structural material, sure it has a lot going for it. As an aesthetic material - not impressed at all.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by Atticus808

just wondering, if you do minor mods like changing the exhaust or adding carbon fibre bits, would that throw the balance of the car off quite a bit?
I remember doing centre of gravity calculations in school, and it can change it a lot, so I just want to see what everyone else thinks.

also, beginner rwd question. I've only had a bit of seat time in a 335i and c63 AMG, so I'm not too familiar with rwd since I daily drive a fwd. I understand that the frs and brz have amazing handling and balance, but what happens if you accelerate in a turn? wouldn't the back end always come loose?

the back end doesnt always come loose, if you do a corner right youll notice the back end will push the car tighter through the corner without loosing grip, you have to learn what unsettles the back end of the car and the proper time to brake in and accelerate out

[SUB-FT86]

The balance front to rear is typical RWD balance 55/45.

[fender9530]

I think the balance will depend on how much weight and your intended purpose for the car. If you just do spirited driving on backroads you may not notice anything. However, if you're a seasoned vet at the track, there may be a bigger difference.

I wouldn't be too concerned with minor weight differences here and there. Things may change when you start removing seats and other hefty items.

[Dake]

Honestly, if you enter a corner quickly a bigger danger to the rear is letting off the gas entirely than it is adding gas (to a certain extent of course). As long as you aren't way too fast to begin with, you'll actually feel the car hunker down as you power through the bend.

That's in this car. Now in something high-powered you do need to be more careful. You don't want to just step on the gas.

[Atticus808]

Originally Posted by Dake

Honestly, if you enter a corner quickly a bigger danger to the rear is letting off the gas entirely than it is adding gas (to a certain extent of course). As long as you aren't way too fast to begin with, you'll actually feel the car hunker down as you power through the bend.

That's in this car. Now in something high-powered you do need to be more careful. You don't want to just step on the gas.

I always had the impression where adding gas in a turn would result in oversteer.
when I drove the c63 I didn't really experiment cause I didn't want to hit a curb.

what is the reason that so many new rwd drivers lose control?

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by Atticus808

just wondering, if you do minor mods like changing the exhaust or adding carbon fibre bits, would that throw the balance of the car off quite a bit?

No

Originally Posted by Atticus808

so I just want to see what everyone else thinks.

Sorry if I sound a bit harsh. But I think you should save your money. Not use them on carbonfiber (if you are planning to) and use them on track days. Just learn to drive on and beyond the limits of grip in a safe environment. That will teach you what happens when you step on the accelerator in a turn and it will teach you about weight shifting to adjust the balance. A 1-2% change in front/rear weight distribution does not do much.
But as you say. Adding weight to the rear will generally result in more oversteer, in theory. Most people will not be able feel the difference between full and near emty tank. Im not able to feel the difference in a normal (FR) car. The differences are subtle. Some may be able to feel the difference in balance better than others tough.
But if you are on the road you normally would not push the car to notice the difference. On the track you usually want to keep weight low by only having about a quarter tank of fuel. So balance would not shift much there either.

Originally Posted by Atticus808

what is the reason that so many new rwd drivers lose control?

Maybe they turn of all driving aids after watching tokyo drift and think they can do the same without having a clue about what happens when the car steps over the limits??
Don't fully disable driving aids if you don't really know how the car will behave when going above the limits.
Take it do the track.
You could also find a big empty abandoned parking space and learn how the car handles in different conditions (dry and wet) without ESP on before going to a track. Then you could have a bit better starting point when going to a track.
And remember, handling in the wet is very different to handling in dry conditions.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by Mikepage

If i can add a comment, the BRZ is supposed to understeer and FR-S oversteer.

Oh my.. This is why OP needs to gets some real life experience. And should not learn driving theory from a forum.

I honestly don't know if I should laugh or cry..

[FirestormFRS]

It's pretty simple really. Overdrive this car and you back into whatever you're gonna hit. Overdrive your FWD car and you head on whatever you're gonna hit.

RWD cars are metric asstons more fun to drive. You have to learn to drive with the throttle as much as the steering wheel. FWD you drive with the brake and the wheel.

Enjoy

[czar07]

you can feel the back end come out anyway, its got progressive break of traction

[Atticus808]

Originally Posted by RaceR

No



Sorry if I sound a bit harsh. But I think you should save your money. Not use them on carbonfiber (if you are planning to) and use them on track days. Just learn to drive on and beyond the limits of grip in a safe environment. That will teach you what happens when you step on the accelerator in a turn and it will teach you about weight shifting to adjust the balance. A 1-2% change in front/rear weight distribution does not do much.
But as you say. Adding weight to the rear will generally result in more oversteer, in theory. Most people will not be able feel the difference between full and near emty tank. Im not able to feel the difference in a normal (FR) car. The differences are subtle. Some may be able to feel the difference in balance better than others tough.
But if you are on the road you normally would not push the car to notice the difference. On the track you usually want to keep weight low by only having about a quarter tank of fuel. So balance would not shift much there either.


Maybe they turn of all driving aids after watching tokyo drift and think they can do the same without having a clue about what happens when the car steps over the limits??
Don't fully disable driving aids if you don't really know how the car will behave when going above the limits.
Take it do the track.
You could also find a big empty abandoned parking space and learn how the car handles in different conditions (dry and wet) without ESP on before going to a track. Then you could have a bit better starting point when going to a track.
And remember, handling in the wet is very different to handling in dry conditions.

oh im never going to get after market carbon fibre parts. it was just used as an example for mods.

in my limited experience with rwd cars, I've never been in a oversteer situation cause I was just test driving. I guess I am just wondering why all reviews say the handling is amazing, when I would assume awd would be better (no im not saying this car should be a awd car).
as mentioned above, the car gets more planted when turning, I never knew that. I need to experiment

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Atticus808

I guess I am just wondering why all reviews say the handling is amazing, when I would assume awd would be better (no im not saying this car should be a awd car).
as mentioned above, the car gets more planted when turning, I never knew that. I need to experiment

IMO what makes the FR-S handling special is (1) how neutral the chassis is setup from the factory, (2) how progressive the rear end will step out, (3) how low the center of gravity and overall curb weight are, and (4) how quick and precise the steering is.

Unfortunately AWD usually results in understeer. I used to own an STI hatch and even with 3 limited slip differentials (F,R,C) when you applied power out of a turn, you would get power-on understeer. Pretty annoying. Basically tires have a limited amount of grip and asking the front tires to turn the car AND pull the car through a turn will result in the front tires losing grip before the rears (i.e., understeer). AWD will also add about 200-300 lbs of additional weight, and in most cars, in a front-heavy weight distribution. The only AWD car I've driven that handles fairly neutral is the Evo X, which uses a torque-vectoring differential in the rear to overcome the chassis' inherent understeer. Feels a bit artificial like the rear end is coming out, but very effective.

To your original q about the FR-S about when the back end comes loose under power, that depends how close you are to the limit of your grip in a turn. The closer you are to that limit (i.e., near maximum speed you can hold in a turn), the easier it is for the rear end to come out under power. The further you are from that limit (i.e., going slower in a turn), the more power you would need to apply to break the rear end loose. One thing that might help you visualize this is the concept of the traction circle:



If you're already near the limit of traction in a turn (i.e., 3:00 position in a right-handed turn), the less grip you have for acceleration. Applying power at that point would break the rear end loose. But if you're well within the traction circle, the more power you can apply without breaking traction (e.g., 1:00 position in a right-handed turn).

[NetMagi]

nice diagrams, now go find a big wet parking lot and jerk the wheel and jam the throttle. It's 90% feel, and 10% knowing what's going to happen. Go learn the "feel" :P

-Rich H.