Subaru BRZ Series.Blue: Not A Miata... Thankfully

[JPxM0Dz]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQZahXR231E"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQZahXR231E[/ame]

[DAEMANO]

Two kind of journalists in this world. Those that get the '86 and those that don't. This guy can stick around.

[perryair]

i'm glad that at lest one reviewer prefers this to the miata. i'm sure that its a great car and i do mean to go test drive it someday just to see what the hype is about, but light steering and body roll which is a universal miata review point does not make a great drivers car in my opinion.

[evan_gt86]

Aside from Jeremy Clarkson and the Top Gear crew, this guy is my next favorite car reviewer. Very good.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by perryair

i'm glad that at lest one reviewer prefers this to the miata. i'm sure that its a great car and i do mean to go test drive it someday just to see what the hype is about, but light steering and body roll which is a universal miata review point does not make a great drivers car in my opinion.

There are other reviewers who preferred the FR-S/BRZ. Paul and Todd from Everyday Driver both liked the FR-S better (and Todd eventually bought one for himself). In the Motortrend comparison that the Miata won, two of the three staff writers actually preferred the FR-S.

Both are obviously fantastic cars, but like you said the Miata's light steering and body roll can put people off. Personally I'd love to test drive one, but I couldn't see myself ever buying one over a dirt cheap NA/NB.

[Mr.Impreza]

That was a good review. Enjoyed watching it...and that tone and music of the video really made me have a relaxing poop I've subscribed.

[Entroper]

Here we go again.

I was expecting something with that title to be a lot less tame. Good review!

[Vracer111]

I just drove a Club Sport 2016 Miata yesterday, and honestly have no desire to ever get one. Truthfully, I would consider the Nissan Juke Nismo RS (which I also drove) before even thinking about the miata...that thing is a hoot and corners flat, much like the FR-S actually.

Things that bug me about the new Miata:

1. The shifter....maybe it's just me, but the shifter is much worse than the FRS; throw feels longer while the knob is freaking buried low in the center console, the resistance and feel is too light, ridiculously light to the point of being really annoying with neutral just a point you pass through from gear to gear. Actually I'm going to just state the truth - I can't stand the shifter whatsover...it's the very opposite of how I want a shifter, other than there being no slop/rubberiness with it. It has ZERO positive feel to engaging the gears, particularly neutral. While I don't particularly care for the stock FR-S shifter either, at least it has a positive feel to it and it's easy to shift into neutral - like when you actually want to put it and leave it in neutral. With the miata it was frustrating the hell out of me as it just wants to naturally go from gear to gear, overshooting neutral. If CAE made a shifter for the miata then all would be good... but they don't. Maybe the aftermarket has a fix for the ridiculous miata shifter, if not I'd never want to drive one again.

2. The seating position...Miata are made for short people, or those with short legs at least. It was nice that the wheel tilts...but still doesn't telescope. So by the time I found a comfortable enough seating position, the wheel was still about 1/2" too far away while the top of the windshield was very uncomfortably close to my face, less than 2" away probably. The FR-S puts you much further back from the windshield plus steering is in a much more comfortable position. So to me a stock miata is still really only suitable for short people (less than 6').

3. The engineered in sway/body roll...not something I like whatsoever in a sports car. I can understand why they would want to do this from a 'fun' perspective, maybe: yeah it is a method of wiggling the car side to side at a very slow speed and feel it dance around for you. What it reminded me of was the time I put Dunlop direzza DZ-101's on a track tuned Integra RS...the car went from chassis and tires turning in as one unit to the tires turning in then chassis being dragged along because of marshmallow sidewalls. With the Integra I could whip the steering wheel back and forth quickly while traveling straight down the highway and the car would just yawn side to side while still traveling in a basically straight vector. That tire/wheel set was taken off ASAP... The miata very much reminded me of that, but not to the extreme the Integra was capable of. Fun to me is ABSOLUTE steering precision where the car goes exactly how you point it, not slewing the chassis about at different angles compared to the actual vector of travel (while the tires are in complete traction with the road..) The FR-S is pretty much the only car I've yet to touch the suspension on because it does exactly what I want it to with such precision. The miata would need some suspension work to get rid of the 'slop'...

Now the miata is not a bad car...it's nicely done and handles quickly and well. It's just the exact manner that it goes about it is not my preference at all. I like, no strike that, I LOVE how the FR-S executes handling through its chassis...it aligns perfectly for how I want a car to respond to my inputs.

I will give the miata praise for its interior, motor, and clutch...very, very nicely done. Too bad the rest of the car (in regards to the driving experience) just doesn't work well for me.

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by Vracer111

I just drove a Club Sport 2016 Miata yesterday, and honestly have no desire to ever get one. Truthfully, I would consider the Nissan Juke Nismo RS (which I also drove) before even thinking about the miata...that thing is a hoot and corners flat, much like the FR-S actually.

Things that bug me about the new Miata:

1. The shifter....maybe it's just me, but the shifter is much worse than the FRS; throw feels longer while the knob is freaking buried low in the center console, the resistance and feel is too light, ridiculously light to the point of being really annoying with neutral just a point you pass through from gear to gear. Actually I'm going to just state the truth - I can't stand the shifter whatsover...it's the very opposite of how I want a shifter, other than there being no slop/rubberiness with it. It has ZERO positive feel to engaging the gears, particularly neutral. While I don't particularly care for the stock FR-S shifter either, at least it has a positive feel to it and it's easy to shift into neutral - like when you actually want to put it and leave it in neutral. With the miata it was frustrating the hell out of me as it just wants to naturally go from gear to gear, overshooting neutral. If CAE made a shifter for the miata then all would be good... but they don't. Maybe the aftermarket has a fix for the ridiculous miata shifter, if not I'd never want to drive one again.

2. The seating position...Miata are made for short people, or those with short legs at least. It was nice that the wheel tilts...but still doesn't telescope. So by the time I found a comfortable enough seating position, the wheel was still about 1/2" too far away while the top of the windshield was very uncomfortably close to my face, less than 2" away probably. The FR-S puts you much further back from the windshield plus steering is in a much more comfortable position. So to me a stock miata is still really only suitable for short people (less than 6').

3. The engineered in sway/body roll...not something I like whatsoever in a sports car. I can understand why they would want to do this from a 'fun' perspective, maybe: yeah it is a method of wiggling the car side to side at a very slow speed and feel it dance around for you. What it reminded me of was the time I put Dunlop direzza DZ-101's on a track tuned Integra RS...the car went from chassis and tires turning in as one unit to the tires turning in then chassis being dragged along because of marshmallow sidewalls. With the Integra I could whip the steering wheel back and forth quickly while traveling straight down the highway and the car would just yawn side to side while still traveling in a basically straight vector. That tire/wheel set was taken off ASAP... The miata very much reminded me of that, but not to the extreme the Integra was capable of. Fun to me is ABSOLUTE steering precision where the car goes exactly how you point it, not slewing the chassis about at different angles compared to the actual vector of travel (while the tires are in complete traction with the road..) The FR-S is pretty much the only car I've yet to touch the suspension on because it does exactly what I want it to with such precision. The miata would need some suspension work to get rid of the 'slop'...

Now the miata is not a bad car...it's nicely done and handles quickly and well. It's just the exact manner that it goes about it is not my preference at all. I like, no strike that, I LOVE how the FR-S executes handling through its chassis...it aligns perfectly for how I want a car to respond to my inputs.

I will give the miata praise for its interior, motor, and clutch...very, very nicely done. Too bad the rest of the car (in regards to the driving experience) just doesn't work well for me.

How exactly does one one "overshoot neutral"...?

I haven't driven one yet, but I think you're the only person I've seen complain about the shifter. Even the guy in this video says good things about it in his ND review video. Most people say the shifters in the Miata and FRS/BRZ are among the best around, behind the S2000's shifter. He also says he's 6'3" and fits in the car just fine. Doesn't look like he's pressed up against the windshield to me.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syIaA_YcaGg"]2016 Mazda MX-5 Miata - The Rebirth Of The King? - YouTube[/ame]

[Vracer111]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

How exactly does one one "overshoot neutral"...?

I haven't driven one yet, but I think you're the only person I've seen complain about the shifter. Even the guy in this video says good things about it in his ND review video. Most people say the shifters in the Miata and FRS/BRZ are among the best around, behind the S2000's shifter. He also says he's 6'3" and fits in the car just fine. Doesn't look like he's pressed up against the windshield to me.

Personal preference...I can't stand smooth, effortless, non-positive shifters: the ND shifter is the most effortless shifter I've ever experienced. Give me a nice, extremely positive and 'notchy' shifter any day, every day. I have been acclimated to the CAE Ultra shifter in my FR-S, which is an extremely positive and ultra precise racing shifter unit that has neutral return spring. It's what I would consider the perfect type of shifter feel. The Miata is completely opposite, it's simply so freaking smooth and ridiculously light with no real positive neutral detent or gear engagement so to speak - it just freaking wants to go to the next gear on its own it seems whether going up or down and just ends up there without satisfactorily clicking into place. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just not what I'd call a positive shifter. I'd take a stock FR-S shifter over the miata shifter...it much, much better to me.

As for the driving position, I will just say when trying to get a proper seating position the stock miata does not work for me... I have to drive in a compromised position. Steering wheel and shifter position/angle for arms is more important for me than feet being at the ideal distance and angle. I'm 6'2" and for a comfortable steering and shifting position the seat needed to be near the midway point of its adjustment (just like with the FR-S.) The presenter in the video said he's 6'3" and had the seat all the way back...either he has orangutan arms or likes driving and shifting from a little too far back...which it looked like with his arms over extended. Fitting in a car /= being able to find a proper seating position in the car.

To me, the stock FR-S seats really suck....much more so than the Miata seats. They are too high and not comfortable for anything more than 15 minutes, because of the bad bottom shape and angle, along with the seat not fitting my shoulders correctly. They were the one major issue I had with the FR-S and I was finally able to mostly fix recently with an aftermarket seat and custom bracketry. Still need to tweak the brackets to lower the position more and provide more rake angle. Then the steering wheel will need to come further out...which means column extension. But even with the sucky stock FR-S seats, I could still get a better driving position than in the Miata - because telescoping column...

Stock seating is done for ease of getting in and out of the car while being 'ergonomic enough'... one size fits all doesn't work unless the seat can adapt to the drivers ergonomics... sliding back and forth and tilting the seat back is a half hearted attempt at adapting to the drivers ergonomics.

There would be a much better driving position available for either the Miata or FR-S stock if you could have the seat adjusted with a nice supportive rake to both the bottom and back angle and enough telescoping of the steering wheel (the miata, yet again, has zero telescoping adjustment ). To let you know what I mean exactly, this is a previous track vehicle that I had setup with the absolutely perfect no-compromises driving position for myself (lowered some 3-4" from stock height in addition too, Note: steering wheel is in a more upright position for ingress/egress ease):

seat view, side view

Basically it was a seating position close to this:



The car also had a very nice positive shifter installed...a Hurst Competition Plus...

So the above should give you an idea where I'm coming from in not liking the shifter and driving position in the new miata.

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by Vracer111

Personal preference...I can't stand smooth, effortless, non-positive shifters: the ND shifter is the most effortless shifter I've ever experienced. Give me a nice, extremely positive and 'notchy' shifter any day, every day. I have been acclimated to the CAE Ultra shifter in my FR-S, which is an extremely positive and ultra precise racing shifter unit that has neutral return spring. It's what I would consider the perfect type of shifter feel. The Miata is completely opposite, it's simply so freaking smooth and ridiculously light with no real positive neutral detent or gear engagement so to speak - it just freaking wants to go to the next gear on its own it seems whether going up or down and just ends up there without satisfactorily clicking into place. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just not what I'd call a positive shifter. I'd take a stock FR-S shifter over the miata shifter...it much, much better to me.

As for the driving position, I will just say when trying to get a proper seating position the stock miata does not work for me... I have to drive in a compromised position. Steering wheel and shifter position/angle for arms is more important for me than feet being at the ideal distance and angle. I'm 6'2" and for a comfortable steering and shifting position the seat needed to be near the midway point of its adjustment (just like with the FR-S.) The presenter in the video said he's 6'3" and had the seat all the way back...either he has orangutan arms or likes driving and shifting from a little too far back...which it looked like with his arms over extended. Fitting in a car /= being able to find a proper seating position in the car.

To me, the stock FR-S seats really suck....much more so than the Miata seats. They are too high and not comfortable for anything more than 15 minutes, because of the bad bottom shape and angle, along with the seat not fitting my shoulders correctly. They were the one major issue I had with the FR-S and I was finally able to mostly fix recently with an aftermarket seat and custom bracketry. Still need to tweak the brackets to lower the position more and provide more rake angle. Then the steering wheel will need to come further out...which means column extension. But even with the sucky stock FR-S seats, I could still get a better driving position than in the Miata - because telescoping column...

Stock seating is done for ease of getting in and out of the car while being 'ergonomic enough'... one size fits all doesn't work unless the seat can adapt to the drivers ergonomics... sliding back and forth and tilting the seat back is a half hearted attempt at adapting to the drivers ergonomics.

There would be a much better driving position available for either the Miata or FR-S stock if you could have the seat adjusted with a nice supportive rake to both the bottom and back angle and enough telescoping of the steering wheel (the miata, yet again, has zero telescoping adjustment ). To let you know what I mean exactly, this is a previous track vehicle that I had setup with the absolutely perfect no-compromises driving position for myself (lowered some 3-4" from stock height in addition too, Note: steering wheel is in a more upright position for ingress/egress ease):

seat view, side view

Basically it was a seating position close to this:



The car also had a very nice positive shifter installed...a Hurst Competition Plus...

So the above should give you an idea where I'm coming from in not liking the shifter and driving position in the new miata.

I don't even know what to say. You sound hyper-critical of minor quibbles to me.

I have no problem finding a comfy position in the 240sxs I've driven (S13s and S14s) as well as the S2000 and FR-S/BRZ. A few adjustments and no big deal. I also didn't think the telescoping feature of the FR-S/BRZ was really all that useful due to a limited range of adjustment. Sure, it helps, but it doesn't make that big of a difference. Seems odd to make such a big deal out of minor complaints like shifter feel and suspension dampening firmness when those things are easily fixed... especially since you seem to not be happy with any stock shifter, considering many, many people say the Miata has one of the best around.

[Vracer111]

It's quite simple...I drove the MX-5 and found things with it I don't like, and the shifter is the thing that really turned me off - that shifter absolutely is not pleasant at all to me, reminds me of a video game shifter. That people actually enjoy the shifter kind of boggles my mind a little!!! But I'm the kind of driver that enjoys a nice, extremely positive and short throw shifter that is right at steering wheel height, thinks that 205/45-17 tires on 17x7.5 wheels are the ideal fitment for the FR-S, and that the stock FR-S handling was neutered some after MY 2014. Basically I'm probably the odd one here...

It's not like I would probably ever get a miata to begin with though; I don't do convertibles. If I did get a miata, the entire convertible system would be yanked out and hard top permanently installed. That would be the only way I'd ever own one.

[Entroper]

Yeah, I'm flummoxed on the shifter comments myself. I think it has plenty of positive engagement. The last 5 cars I've driven were an NB 6-speed, RX-8, NB 5-speed, FR-S, and BRZ. All of those except the 5-speed were Aisin-derived, basically the same unit with different ratios. They were all super precise, but very stiff when cold. The 5-speed was super smooth, but less precise.

IMO, the ND combines the smoothness of the NB 5-speed with the precision of the Aisin 6-speed. It has positive feedback, it just doesn't get all pissy when you wake it up too early.

I'm going to compare the throw length tonight. I will be surprised if the ND's is longer.

[DarkSunrise]

I had a chance to sit in the new ND Miata last weekend. In terms of the transmission, the shifts felt extremely smooth which I liked, but others might prefer more feedback/notchiness going into each gate. I don't think there's a right or wrong, just personal preference. The shift throws felt a bit longer than in our cars.

The cabin was a pleasant place to sit, other than the LCD screen. I don't know who designed the location, but it seemed more like an afterthought and partially obstructs visibility. That was my only real complaint though. Other than that, the seats were decently supportive and the driving position was pretty good.

Overall the cabin felt higher quality than our cars, but I think the FR-S/BRZ seating position is better. Nothing about the Miata made me want to trade my FR-S in, but I won't really know until I get a chance to drive one hard (or better yet track one).