Scion FR-S Cover Article in new Road and Track Magazine

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S

the '8 is built to be more of a solid GT-type car, which probably adds weight - presumably the FR-S will lean towards more of a Miata-style construction and feel.

The RX8 is more of a sports car than a GT, even though it is considerably larger and heavier than the MX5: 106" vs 91" wheelbase, 2925-2975 pounds vs 2480 pounds (RX8 base 6MT vs MX5 5MT).

The RX-01 had a 2425 pounds target weight, but that was a much smaller car. The RX Evolv had a ~2640 pounds target weight, but cost cutting measures and concept vs production realities pushed it up by the time it became the RX8. Interesting factoid: Mazda debated getting rid of the suicide doors because they were responsible for 200 pounds of extra weight (mainly due to chassis reinforcement for the larger opening).

Anyway back to the topic, when I read the dead tree version of the article a couple days ago, I assumed Road and Track pulled that 3000 pounds weight estimate out of their ass. 2700-2800 seems more likely (hopefully it'll be on the lower end of that).

[blur]

I wonder how much a miata with a 13b swap would weigh. Although, it is pointless, since the FD is a beatiful car

BTW, this article is trash. None of the numbers are on target. Take the last Celica as an example of what this car will weigh. 2500 lbs is completely doable, as the S15 Silvia came in at 2650 lbs(1200kg) with turbo.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Agreed, but the TYPE of fun wasn't really my point, it's the amount of fun I'm having for the amount of money I'm spending. It's a give and take situation, if I'm giving a car manufacturer more money, I expect them to give me more in return. I don't expect Toyota to give me the same amount of fun for $25k that Chevy's would give me for $50k. That's not realistic. If the Camaro ZL1 had a $25k sticker only a die hard Toyota fan and/or an idiot would buy an FR-S over the ZL1, because the two cars are not equal.

I could sell my 7 and Talon to bring payments down to an affordable range on a GT-R or a Z06, but I'm not going to get anywhere near a equal return (I mean fun, not monetarily) on that investment.

[Edit] On a similar note, if Toyota or Mazda release any solid information about releasing a Supra/RX before the FR-S is released you better believe I'm jumping on one. They also better not be in S2000/RX8 or even 370Z territory in terms of performance.

Disagreed on that, at least for the RX.

The RX should remain a 370z competitor. The vette has been steadily gaining in price and will further gain on the C7.

A 3 rotor, or a 1.6L would bump horsepower up to the 300+ level even without turbos. If the RX-7/9 actually happens (I have my doubts), a return to a 2 door and sub 3000lb weight along with either the 1.6L or a turbo would have me buying that car in an instant. I love rotaries. I'd have an RX-8 but the power is so low and there's no real aftermarket for it since it sells so poorly, especially the 2009+ S2 chassis, and intake/exhaust/porting has almost no effect on power because the Renesis is already in such a high state of tune.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by blur

I wonder how much a miata with a 13b swap would weigh. Although, it is pointless, since the FD is a beatiful car

BTW, this article is trash. None of the numbers are on target. Take the last Celica as an example of what this car will weigh. 2500 lbs is completely doable, as the S15 Silvia came in at 2650 lbs(1200kg) with turbo.

Prepare to be disappointed then.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Why not? I'm in the same position. I could go out and buy a Mustang Boss right now if I wanted (and could find one...). Or a new BMW 1 M-coupe. Or a 2 year old Porsche Cayman. Or any other sporty car that was 50k or less.

Just because I CAN doesn't mean I will. If a really unique, cool little car for 20-25k is being developed and it looks like it may actually perform well and be pretty cool, then why wouldn't I want to wait and see if it's any good? It'll cost me less in insurance, the car will be easier to work on, parts less expensive, and how good do you think the FR-S/SubCoupe would be with an extra 15k in it?

Why do you think I'm so damn hard on the car?

I guess you don't get it. It isn't a matter of what you can or can not afford. You might as well throw in a used Z06 on that list and compare it to the FT-86 which is ridiculous. The Scion is a mid $20k car. And yet you are ok with comparing it to cars that will cost 2-2.5x as much. Seriously? No shit at that point will the more expensive car have more hp, be faster...etc. But it just isn't a fair comparison. If you can afford a new 1M outright, what are you doing on here and why aren't you already in a 1M? If I could I would pass on the Scion if I was in your situation. However at this point I can't afford the dream cars I want. Otherwise the FT86 wouldn't make the same train of thought for me as a new GTR, F10 M5, GT3 RS or Z06.

To compare a mid $20k Scion with around 200 hp against a $50k Camaro putting out 550hp is idiotic at best and then complaining that the Scion needs more hp is just out of this world. That is the issue. Do with your money as you please.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

I guess you don't get it. It isn't a matter of what you can or can not afford. You might as well throw in a used Z06 on that list and compare it to the FT-86 which is ridiculous. The Scion is a mid $20k car. And yet you are ok with comparing it to cars that will cost 2-2.5x as much. Seriously? No shit at that point will the more expensive car have more hp, be faster...etc. But it just isn't a fair comparison. If you can afford a new 1M outright, what are you doing on here and why aren't you already in a 1M? If I could I would pass on the Scion if I was in your situation. However at this point I can't afford the dream cars I want. Otherwise the FT86 wouldn't make the same train of thought for me as a new GTR, F10 M5, GT3 RS or Z06.

To compare a mid $20k Scion with around 200 hp against a $50k Camaro putting out 550hp is idiotic at best and then complaining that the Scion needs more hp is just out of this world. That is the issue. Do with your money as you please.

I'm really starting to dislike this place. I didn't compare any of those cars to the FT-86 on performance. I specifically avoided that, because absolute performance is not really what I'm concerned with. I compared them on value.

At no point did I draw any kind of performance comparison between those cars (apparently you did though). They're completely different types of cars and not comparable to each other. The fact that I could get either is immaterial to the discussion.

I want to have fun with my car. I want to buy something that's at least competitive for the price. Other sporty cars in the price segment offer boosted 4cylinder engines and similar suspension set-ups. This car is only going to weigh less because it's smaller, not because it's built out of costly materials, thus I am unwilling to pay any more for it. "Handling feel" is subjective and can be obtained without exotic, costly materials as well. Thus I am not willing to pay for that either. Civic Si performance isn't acceptable...because that car is already well behind the competition.

Plain and simple: Listen up Toyota/Subaru. This car is barely going to be competitive. If you want to knock the ball out of the park, offer it with a WRX engine, for WRX money. You'll make less money per unit but way more money on volume.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Other sporty cars in the price segment offer boosted 4cylinder engines and similar suspension set-ups.

They aren't lightweight and RWD.

Originally Posted by Maxim

Civic Si performance isn't acceptable...because that car is already well behind the competition.

As far as acceleration goes, it ought to be similar to the Si. The Toyobaru is for people that want a smaller, lighter, cheaper, and more efficient RX8 (and are fine with smaller rear seats and acceleration closer to the MX5's).

Originally Posted by Maxim

Plain and simple: Listen up Toyota/Subaru. This car is barely going to be competitive. If you want to knock the ball out of the park, offer it with a WRX engine, for WRX money. You'll make less money per unit but way more money on volume.

I'm not sure about the volume part of that statement. The car would be significantly heavier (from the 2.5L + turbo spaghetti as well as the beefier components needed to handle the engine's 244 ftlbs) and get worse MPG. Yes, some on this forum scoff at fuel efficiency, but it matters to many people looking for a daily driver.

Also, I don't know if the car would even be profitable.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Deslock

They aren't lightweight and RWD.

Neither of which anybody should be willing to pay ANY extra money for, since there are no exotic materials being used to make the car. RWD is not a bonus feature, it's a drivetrain layout, and the car is tiny. It damn well better be light.

As far as acceleration goes, it ought to be similar to the Si. The Toyobaru is for people that want a smaller, lighter, cheaper, and more efficient RX8 (and are fine with smaller rear seats and acceleration closer to the MX5's).

The Si is literally the bottom of the barrel, performance wise. The low cost performance car segment has become insanely competitive. If ANYBODY can think of a reason why this car should have Si performance, and not MS3 or GTI performance, they should speak up. Those vehicles are offered at a similar price.

I'm not sure about the volume part of that statement. The car would be significantly heavier (from the 2.5L + turbo spaghetti as well as the beefier components needed to handle the engine's 244 ftlbs) and get worse MPG. Yes, some on this forum scoff at fuel efficiency, but it matters to many people looking for a daily driver.

Also, I don't know if the car would even be profitable.

Who said anything about a 2.5L turbo? A 2.5L N/A or a 2.0L turbo would be preferable. And the turbo piping and hardware to support the torque would not add much weight at all. It's 2xx ft/lbs of torque are not that much.

Additionally, it would certainly not get worse gas mileage. A turbo engine gets non-turbo mileage as long as you stay out of the boost. I AVERAGE 27.9 mpg in the city in my GTI - and most of that is in the city. If anything, it would get better gas mileage, as you wouldn't need to rev the snot out of it just to pass somebody.

The RX-8 was a failure. Offering a car that's only marginally lighter, has less power, and less usable space will also be a failure. Base price on an RX-8 is sitting right at ~26k and if you can actually FIND one on a dealer's lot you can walk away with it for more like 22-23k. Do you really think this car is going to cost much less than that?

I see absolutely no reason why a higher performance target should not be met for the same price. I would view this vehicle as a rip-off if it offered Si level performance for Si level money, because I view the Si as a rip off.

If the car is offered and is extremely competitive with other cheap performance cars, of course it will sell better than if it's among the slowest. That's a given.

People need to stop viewing RWD+Light as something that should cost extra. Neither are. This car is going to be a scion and it will not have a premium interior - it should AT LEAST be able to match a GTI in performance for the money.

[ginog]

Just looked at my current figures of my car: Civic SI. 2.0L 197HP, 139Torque, Weight = 2888.
If this car is not better, then I am out

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by ginog

Just looked at my current figures of my car: Civic SI. 2.0L 197HP, 139Torque, Weight = 2888.
If this car is not better, then I am out

It will handily beat your car in torque. It'll probably be comparable, engine-wise, to the 9th gen Civic, which has a 2.5L with 170ft/lbs.

If it was significantly lighter, it would be pretty good still....but I sincerely doubt it will be more than 150lbs lighter.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Maxim

I'm really starting to dislike this place. I didn't compare any of those cars to the FT-86 on performance. I specifically avoided that, because absolute performance is not really what I'm concerned with. I compared them on value.

At no point did I draw any kind of performance comparison between those cars (apparently you did though). They're completely different types of cars and not comparable to each other. The fact that I could get either is immaterial to the discussion.

I want to have fun with my car. I want to buy something that's at least competitive for the price. Other sporty cars in the price segment offer boosted 4cylinder engines and similar suspension set-ups. This car is only going to weigh less because it's smaller, not because it's built out of costly materials, thus I am unwilling to pay any more for it. "Handling feel" is subjective and can be obtained without exotic, costly materials as well. Thus I am not willing to pay for that either. Civic Si performance isn't acceptable...because that car is already well behind the competition.

Plain and simple: Listen up Toyota/Subaru. This car is barely going to be competitive. If you want to knock the ball out of the park, offer it with a WRX engine, for WRX money. You'll make less money per unit but way more money on volume.

I never said you compared those cars (911 GT3 RS, M5, Z06). I did that to show how unreasonable it would be to compare a car that costs $$$$ against a little Scion. Just isn't logical.

However.... you were the one trying to compare a Mustang Boss, 1M coupe and a Porsche Cayman against the Scion. Were you not? You mentioned those were the cars that you are interested in and said it was fine to compare this against a 550hp Camaro ZL1.

Originally Posted by Maxim

Why not? I'm in the same position. I could go out and buy a Mustang Boss right now if I wanted (and could find one...). Or a new BMW 1 M-coupe. Or a 2 year old Porsche Cayman. Or any other sporty car that was 50k or less.

Just because I CAN doesn't mean I will. If a really unique, cool little car for 20-25k is being developed and it looks like it may actually perform well and be pretty cool, then why wouldn't I want to wait and see if it's any good? It'll cost me less in insurance, the car will be easier to work on, parts less expensive, and how good do you think the FR-S/SubCoupe would be with an extra 15k in it?

Why do you think I'm so damn hard on the car?

What you can afford on a car doesn't really account into what this car should compare itself against. That is like me saying I can afford up to $30k on a car and say the Scion should compete against a USED 370z, Cayman...etc. To compare a used car against a new car makes no sense. You will always get more bang for the buck with a used car, but in the end it is still a used car.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

I never said you compared those cars (911 GT3 RS, M5, Z06). I did that to show how unreasonable it would be to compare a car that costs $$$$ against a little Scion. Just isn't logical.

However.... you were the one trying to compare a Mustang Boss, 1M coupe and a Porsche Cayman against the Scion. Were you not? You mentioned those were the cars that you are interested in and said it was fine to compare this against a 550hp Camaro ZL1.




What you can afford on a car doesn't really account into what this car should compare itself against. That is like me saying I can afford up to $30k on a car and say the Scion should compete against a USED 370z, Cayman...etc. To compare a used car against a new car makes no sense. You will always get more bang for the buck with a used car, but in the end it is still a used car.

No. Re-read my posts. I did not compare them on performance at all. I'm interested in them, and I'm interested in this. For different reasons....they're not anywhere NEAR in performance. The point I was trying to make is that just because I can afford much faster cars, I'm still interested in this because a light, small RWD car is just damn fun....if it can get out of it's own way. It doesn't have to be 370z quick...but it better not be Si slow either, because that car is a rip off, performance wise. And no, I can definitely compare against used cars - I've owned both new and used. A used car that's only a couple years old might as well be new.

IF the market does not offer me what I want I will be forced to spend more or pick up something used. I don't think I'm asking too much.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Maxim

No. Re-read my posts. I did not compare them on performance at all. I'm interested in them, and I'm interested in this. For different reasons....they're not anywhere NEAR in performance. The point I was trying to make is that just because I can afford much faster cars, I'm still interested in this because a light, small RWD car is just damn fun....if it can get out of it's own way. It doesn't have to be 370z quick...but it better not be Si slow either, because that car is a rip off, performance wise.

No re-read my posts that you replied to originally:

Originally Posted by danban

200hp, 150lb/ft for a flat 4 isn't too bad, but if this going to be the spec for the FR-S and if there won't be any better model then i am not going to have business with toyota or subaru. Maybe its time to contact some chevy dealer for the upcoming carmaro ZL1.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Are you real trying to consider a $23-25k Scion in the same sentence as a $50K Camaro ZL1? lol you crack me up.

Originally Posted by Maxim

Why not? I'm in the same position. I could go out and buy a Mustang Boss right now if I wanted (and could find one...). Or a new BMW 1 M-coupe. Or a 2 year old Porsche Cayman. Or any other sporty car that was 50k or less.

Why not? The why is because it is idiotic to compare a mid $20k car with 200hp against a $50k car with 550hp. That is why. /discussion

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

No re-read my posts that you replied to originally:










Why not? The why is because it is idiotic to compare a mid $20k car with 200hp against a $50k car with 550hp. That is why. /discussion

Obviously you are either blind or illiterate. I see no point in attempting to have a discussion with somebody who cannot, or will not, read.