Scion FR-S Cover Article in new Road and Track Magazine

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S

There's just too much competition out there for Toyota to produce a sports car with such abysmal acceleration - even an SI would eat the thing for breakfast.

Agree.

But they are slowly shoving the $23+k price tag down the consumer's throats like recent, then what I expect from it, is to beat the Si and WRX in every test, it's small, RWD and lightweight FFS.

With that said I feel that Toyota wants to cut corners and hype it up to make the biggest profit. Personally on a car like this I think it should be used to restore the image first not wealth.. since the image will bring on the wealth automatically. I think TMC/Scion at this point with their image are forgetting that they need to give a little to get a little, and expound on that idea and keep giving more. I mean look at the poll on the R&T link, the Scion looks by far better in the pic used, yet the Subaru got 3x times the amount of vote. Everyone read R&T, and mainly the average consumer that this car is built for. That tells you something.

[madfast]

There is no way this thing weighs 3000 lbs. where is all the weight coming from? no way...

how can any modern auto be that slow vs the manual? on the miata, the auto is about as fast as the manual.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by madfast

There is no way this thing weighs 3000 lbs. where is all the weight coming from? no way...

how can any modern auto be that slow vs the manual? on the miata, the auto is about as fast as the manual.

Look at the RX-8. It was about 3000-3100lbs depending on options. It's a 2+2 and there's not much size difference. The trick doors might have added a small amount of weight but not much. Look at the Solstice and Sky. Both 2800lbs+....and no top or rear seats.

As for the question of the auto/manual tranny, LOTS of cars have significant performance differences between auto and manual versions. There's even the chance that if this engine revs high enough, the automatic car will make less power because the transmission will not be able to rev to the peak power. That's what happened with the RX-8 auto. Lost 30hp.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Look at the RX-8. It was about 3000-3100lbs depending on options. It's a 2+2 and there's not much size difference. The trick doors might have added a small amount of weight but not much. Look at the Solstice and Sky. Both 2800lbs+....and no top or rear seats.

As for the question of the auto/manual tranny, LOTS of cars have significant performance differences between auto and manual versions. There's even the chance that if this engine revs high enough, the automatic car will make less power because the transmission will not be able to rev to the peak power. That's what happened with the RX-8 auto. Lost 30hp.

the RX-8 is a full 10" longer than the FT, going by the size of the FT-II concept (about 165" long). its actually closer to the miata in size (157"). the RX-8 also has actual rear seats. and like you said, the rear doors mean they have to strengthen the chassis for stiffness and the doors themselves have to pass side impact standards.

on the other hand, the miata in grand touring, auto, PRHT trim is about 2600 lbs. i'd be willing to bet the FT stays under 2800 lbs easy.

and about the auto, your example is an anomaly. the RX-8 spins to 9k rpm. again the auto miata is close to the manual in 0-60. also, the aisin auto tranny in the miata is supposedly the one thats to be used in the FT so its really relevant.

[Sport-Tech]

Maxim, interesting point about the RX-8; but looking at the superimposed profile below it seems it's a fair bit bigger at the rear than the FR-S should be, adding a few hundred pounds. Also the '8 is built to be more of a solid GT-type car, which probably adds weight - presumably the FR-S will lean towards more of a Miata-style construction and feel.

Consider also that a first-gen Tiburon is 5" longer than the first FR-S concept and has a weight of 2566 lbs (manual), and it certainly didn't make use of any lightweight metals, high-strength steel, or other expensive engineering tricks to get the weight down. So allowing for safety upgrades over the past decade maybe 2700 lbs is feasible.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Sabastian

When archeologists dig up this thread 2000 years from now, they'll say this was where we officially went off topic.

Uh no, that was posted to show a car that is very similar in size, FWD with no RWD parts and driveshaft weighing it down. That little thing tips the 3200lb mark, just note that Volvo is safety minded, but so is Subaru and now along with Toyota because of all their recent issues.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S

Maxim, interesting point about the RX-8; but looking at the superimposed profile below it seems it's a fair bit bigger at the rear than the FR-S should be, adding a few hundred pounds. Also the '8 is built to be more of a solid GT-type car, which probably adds weight - presumably the FR-S will lean towards more of a Miata-style construction and feel.

Consider also that a first-gen Tiburon is 5" longer than the first FR-S concept and has a weight of 2566 lbs (manual), and it certainly didn't use any lightweight metals, high-strength steel, or other expensive engineering tricks to get the weight down. So allowing for safety upgrades over the past decade maybe 2700 lbs is feasible.

Uh the current NC Miata is on the RX8 chassis. So...


Also the 1st gen Tiburon was a cheap sheet metal, plastics, very cheap overall everything you're talking about Hyundai like 15 years ago. And it didn't have RWD which add another 200lbs easily, AND it didn't need the same saftey features with 6+ airbags. Add that with bigger wheels and tires, heavier 6spd and you got over 2800+lbs easily.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S

Maxim, interesting point about the RX-8; but looking at the superimposed profile below it seems it's a fair bit bigger at the rear than the FR-S should be, adding a few hundred pounds. Also the '8 is built to be more of a solid GT-type car, which probably adds weight - presumably the FR-S will lean towards more of a Miata-style construction and feel.

Consider also that a first-gen Tiburon is 5" longer than the first FR-S concept and has a weight of 2566 lbs (manual), and it certainly didn't use any lightweight metals, high-strength steel, or other expensive engineering tricks to get the weight down. So allowing for safety upgrades over the past decade maybe 2700 lbs is feasible.

Um...The Miata rides on a modified RX-8 chassis. So they both use the same type of construction, and they were both designed to be lightweight from the start.

Given the FR-S's size and hardtop, I think when the dust settles it's going to weigh similar to the S2000. So....a hardtop S2000 that's down 40hp.

This is why I'm worried.


*edit* Dammit PA, you beat me by SECONDS.

[Aki]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Uh no, that was posted to show a car that is very similar in size, FWD with no RWD parts and driveshaft weighing it down. That little thing tips the 3200lb mark, just note that Volvo is safety minded, but so is Subaru and now along with Toyota because of all their recent issues.

And the Hyundai Veloster is just under 2600 lbs but is FWD. Point is, you can't simply look at other cars and draw conclusions of how heavy this one will be.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Um...The Miata rides on a modified RX-8 chassis. So they both use the same type of construction, and they were both designed to be lightweight from the start.

Given the FR-S's size and hardtop, I think when the dust settles it's going to weigh similar to the S2000. So....a hardtop S2000 that's down 40hp.

This is why I'm worried.


*edit* Dammit PA, you beat me by SECONDS.

A stock s2k only went, depending on year, 5.5 0-60 and 14.2 1/4mile.

So we got:
NC Miata 6.7 15.2
RX-8 5.8 14.4
S2000 5.5 14.2

So guys, being 2012 do you think the FRS should be:
Between the Miata and RX-8
Same as RX-8
Between RX-8 and and s2k?

All these cars handle exceptionally well so I'm are not saying power over handling here.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

A stock s2k only went, depending on year, 5.5 0-60 and 14.2 1/4mile.

So we got:
NC Miata 6.7 15.2
RX-8 5.8 14.4
S2000 5.5 14.2

So guys, being 2012 do you think the FRS should be:
Between the Miata and RX-8
Same as RX-8
Between RX-8 and and s2k?

All these cars handle exceptionally well so I'm are not saying power over handling here.

If they got the interior and options right, I'd be happy with RX-8 performance for around 23k. That's reasonable. The renesis is not a cheap engine and the RX did have more HP.

I think your times for the RX-8 are just slightly optimistic though. Most tests I've seen had it in the low 6's for 0-60 and barely cracking into the 14s in the 1/4. Basically the same as the GTI, actually.

[RRnold]

I don't believe in that weight calculation from R/T until I see the actual vehicle specs from the manufacture.

Until then, I'll let you guys continue to pound sand all day long!

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by RRnold

I don't believe in that weight calculation from R/T until I see the actual vehicle specs from the manufacture.

Until then, I'll let you guys continue to pound sand all day long!

Personally I think the car will probably wind up right around 2800, not 3000.

It's certainly NOT going to be 2500 like some people are hoping.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

A stock s2k only went, depending on year, 5.5 0-60 and 14.2 1/4mile.

So we got:
NC Miata 6.7 15.2
RX-8 5.8 14.4
S2000 5.5 14.2

So guys, being 2012 do you think the FRS should be:
Between the Miata and RX-8
Same as RX-8
Between RX-8 and and s2k?

All these cars handle exceptionally well so I'm are not saying power over handling here.

D, none of the above. it should slot in between the miata and S2000, in terms of weight and power. i dont know why the RX-8 was brought into the discussion because quite frankly its in a larger car class. looking at the spy shots, the FT's rear seats look close to unusable. either that or the test drivers put their seats all the way back... so while its officially a 2+2, we can almost treat it as a 2 seater... i mean its 8" longer than a miata. how can a normal sized adult fit back there comfortably???