1st G-force test of my 2017 BRZ.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

No answers to my questions eh? Not surprising. What is your age? I guess someplace around 40. How many miles have you driven? You are the one asserting you are far advanced of me. Prove it.

How would you know I'm not making stuff up?

We could start with the oldest winter tire you've ever driven on?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Gforce

How would you know I'm not making stuff up?

We could start with the oldest winter tire you've ever driven on?

That is true. You have made up a lot including your bizarrely contrived statements on my (and everybody else's) driving and tire experience so I guess everything else would be questionable as well.
I am not into having a **** measuring contest with anybody that apparently doesn't have much of one so if you won't support YOUR statements that you have vastly more driving experience then fine.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Gforce

I'd love to reply to all of your friendly and informative posts but some of you are inarticulate to,the point of frenzy, so I am not sure what you'all are sayin'.

The Michelin Primacy HP is actually a very good tire, lightweight, good ride and great grip especially in the wet. But it's a grand touring tire, not a high performance tire (although the version Subaru fits is the HP or high performance version).

It's a bit of a waste to put too much summer tire on this chassis, it doesn't have enough power. Even with a Supercharger the Michelin A/S 3 I have on are quite adequate. The tendency to lose grip at the rear axle is designed in by Subaru and better tires do not change that characteristic as many journalists have discovered.

You'all can google yourselves far better than I but here's a good video by a top notch journalist who can also drive, he recently partnered with Gerard Berger at Le Mans, assuming you can remember who Mr Berger was.

Bear in mind that this was the optional performance version of the GT86 offered in the UK which had 225/40 x 18 PS3 performance tires (about the same performance as the A/S3). Still a real handful chasing a similarly equipped but more powerful modified Miata (sold as the MX5 in the UK).

See, I do know what I'm taking about.

Your supercharger that doesn't compress air or create boost?

Originally Posted by Gforce

How about two videos.

Here's the tiny Ford Fiesta ST taking lunch money from the Toyota GT86:

Had the track been wet the drubbing would have been much worse.

I am totally baffled as to what point you are trying to make with these videos? Is Evo where you learned all your car info? I thought that your point was that the modern AS tires were as good as snows in the winter and that the 86 chassis was horrible in the wet or snow no matter what tires you used. I see no snow in any of those videos.
Throwing random videos at the argument doesn't help.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

That is true. You have made up a lot including your bizarrely contrived statements on my (and everybody else's) driving and tire experience so I guess everything else would be questionable as well.
I am not into having a **** measuring contest with anybody that apparently doesn't have much of one so if you won't support YOUR statements that you have vastly more driving experience then fine.

How about you first since you're the one with the ego issue? Don't make stuff up, I can tell. Or you could just give up, of course.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Your supercharger that doesn't compress air or create boost?



I am totally baffled as to what point you are trying to make with these videos? Is Evo where you learned all your car info? I thought that your point was that the modern AS tires were as good as snows in the winter and that the 86 chassis was horrible in the wet or snow no matter what tires you used. I see no snow in any of those videos.
Throwing random videos at the argument doesn't help.

Your bafflement surprised me not at all. A roots type Supercharger, such as the Eaton currently on my car, creates boost pressure in the intake by pumping more air in than the engine can accept. It does not compress the air inside the Supercharger, it just pumps. A turbocharger creates boost inside the compressor housing. These are completely different ways of increasing engine power and you can tell which is which by driving them back to back. I can tell without needing to compare them directly having driven so many boosted cars.

My point about All Season tires is that they are no longer no season tires as we used to call them. They are now so good they work very well as summer tires. In real world street driving these new all season tires are better than higher performance summer only tires because they do not need to warm up to be effective. To warm up your expensive Supersports to the same grip level as the A/S3 achieves right from cold is just not feasible on the street. In fact, if you try to warm up those expensive ultra high performance tires to their proper level will likely lose your license if you try to do this in any urban setting.

Bonus, those all season tires won't leave you stuck if it snows between the time you drive to work and evening rush hour.

The Michelin A/S 3+ is not as good a snow tire as the DWS but then as others have noted the DWS is a bit too soft for aggressive driving in the heat.

What is really surprising is you made the same tire decision as I did. I know why I bought my all season tires.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Gforce

Your bafflement surprised me not at all. A roots type Supercharger, such as the Eaton currently on my car, creates boost pressure in the intake by pumping more air in than the engine can accept. A turbocharger creates boost inside the compressor housing. These are completely different ways of increasing engine power and you can tell which is which by driving them back to back. I can tell without needing to compare them directly having driven so msmy boosted cars.

My point about All Seasin tires is that they are no longer no season tires as we used to call them. They are now so good they work very well as summer tires. In real world street driving these new all season tires are better than higher performance summer only tires because they do not need to warm up to be effective. To warm up your expensive

Wow, no wonder you are posting nonsensical crap in here.

Jaden

p.s. Just so you know and can consider yourself informed, a twin screw or lobe type supercharger compresses air by forcing air into the tighter spaces created as the screws or lobes come together from the larger space where the air is brought into the supercharger, the amount of space where the engine takes in the air has NOTHING to do with the compression of the air. This is also why it is a positive displacement supercharger, because while the increased RPMs will flow more air, it doesn't change the pressure ratio as much as say a centrifugal compressor because it's based on the differential between the space between lobes/screws when apart where the air comes in and when together where the air is compressed.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Gforce

How about you first since you're the one with the ego issue? Don't make stuff up, I can tell. Or you could just give up, of course.

Please indicate the points where ego issues came up on my end. You are the one saying that only "real drivers" such as yourself know the car is no good in the snow or wet. You are the one making repeated claims to have far more experience in driving than I when you have no clue about me. I have not reputed that claim since I have no clue what your driving history is. Yu are the one bursting with ego but not willing to answer a single question with more than "I know more than you". My ego is fully intact and although I may be making myself look like fool arguing with a nimrod that can't even give a straight answer beyond "you don't know what you are talking about" I am willing to do that to prevent the impressionable guys here to believe your shit. If you wish to continue to make claims about your mad skills let's see some info to back it up.

Originally Posted by Gforce

Your bafflement surprised me not at all. A roots type Supercharger, such as the Eaton currently on my car, creates boost pressure in the intake by pumping more air in than the engine can accept. It does not compress the air inside the Supercharger, it just pumps. A turbocharger creates boost inside the compressor housing. These are completely different ways of increasing engine power and you can tell which is which by driving them back to back. I can tell without needing to compare them directly having driven so many boosted cars.

My point about All Season tires is that they are no longer no season tires as we used to call them. They are now so good they work very well as summer tires. In real world street driving these new all season tires are better than higher performance summer only tires because they do not need to warm up to be effective. To warm up your expensive Supersports to the same grip level as the A/S3 achieves right from cold is just not feasible on the street. In fact, if you try to warm up those expensive ultra high performance tires to their proper level will likely lose your license if you try to do this in any urban setting.

Bonus, those all season tires won't leave you stuck if it snows between the time you drive to work and evening rush hour.

The Michelin A/S 3+ is not as good a snow tire as the DWS but then as others have noted the DWS is a bit too soft for aggressive driving in the heat.

What is really surprising is you made the same tire decision as I did. I know why I bought my all season tires.

What do those videos have to do with it? That was what baffled me (you can read right?) and I thought that was clear. You are so far out in left field on your supercharger theory that you can't even see the ball park. I agree the AS abilities to a point. The point I was making all along was they do not replace winter tires which you maintained they were just as good. I have said it about 20 times so far so if you want to back pedal on what you said I can simply go back and quote the comments if it will help.

[2013dgmbrzdood]

Btw if anyone cares about reality the new Michelin 4s will not be available in 17 inch.

I think I understand now. He thinks the 4s means all season, no it means 4th generation pilot sport, it is not an all season tire. Lol, wow.


Now your position is summer tire is a waste in this car? Because the chassis is so good you mean? Lol man why should I even form a response, you're nuts!

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by 2013dgmbrzdood

Btw if anyone cares about reality the new Michelin 4s will not be available in 17 inch.

I think I understand now. He thinks the 4s means all season, no it means 4th generation pilot sport, it is not an all season tire. Lol, wow.


Now your position is summer tire is a waste in this car? Because the chassis is so good you mean? Lol man why should I even form a response, you're nuts!

You're not even in the ballpark.

Just btw, the Michelin 4s will be available in a full range of sizes fairly soon.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Wow, no wonder you are posting nonsensical crap in here.

Jaden

p.s. Just so you know and can consider yourself informed, a twin screw or lobe type supercharger compresses air by forcing air into the tighter spaces created as the screws or lobes come together from the larger space where the air is brought into the supercharger, the amount of space where the engine takes in the air has NOTHING to do with the compression of the air. This is also why it is a positive displacement supercharger, because while the increased RPMs will flow more air, it doesn't change the pressure ratio as much as say a centrifugal compressor because it's based on the differential between the space between lobes/screws when apart where the air comes in and when together where the air is compressed.

No,it doesn't. Assuming you think a twin screw and a lobe type Supercharger are the same, which they aren't. Read up some more and report back when you've informed yourself.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Please indicate the points where ego issues came up on my end. You are the one saying that only "real drivers" such as yourself know the car is no good in the snow or wet. You are the one making repeated claims to have far more experience in driving than I when you have no clue about me. I have not reputed that claim since I have no clue what your driving history is. Yu are the one bursting with ego but not willing to answer a single question with more than "I know more than you". My ego is fully intact and although I may be making myself look like fool arguing with a nimrod that can't even give a straight answer beyond "you don't know what you are talking about" I am willing to do that to prevent the impressionable guys here to believe your shit. If you wish to continue to make claims about your mad skills let's see some info to back it up.


What do those videos have to do with it? That was what baffled me (you can read right?) and I thought that was clear. You are so far out in left field on your supercharger theory that you can't even see the ball park. I agree the AS abilities to a point. The point I was making all along was they do not replace winter tires which you maintained they were just as good. I have said it about 20 times so far so if you want to back pedal on what you said I can simply go back and quote the comments if it will help.

I think you used the word ego first. That ends that discussion.

I never suggested an all season tire could replace a winter tire, you assumed that.

Whether a DWS is going to be a better choice than a winter tire is not a simple question to answer, yet you recommended a winter tire based on seriously out dated information. Winter tires are a very bad choice now for many areas where winter is neither very cold nor very snowy.

That ends that discussion neatly.

My views on Superchargers are absolutely correct.

My views on the inadequacy of the BRZ chassis are held in common with a significant number of expert drivers. You just choose to ignore them. That takes care of your other point.

Interestingly, we agree that the latest all season tires work well on this chassis. I now suspect you know as well as I do why that is the case. Care to make a straightforward admission about that or did you just buy the wrong tire?

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Gforce

No,it doesn't. Assuming you think a twin screw and a lobe type Supercharger are the same, which they aren't. Read up some more and report back when you've informed yourself.

Operation



Cross-section through the rotors of a typical screw compressor with a male rotor having 5 lobes and a female rotor having 6. For five rotations of the female rotor, the male rotor makes six rotations. Click here for the animated diagram


Rotary-screw compressors use two meshing helical screws, known as rotors, to compress the gas. In a dry-running rotary-screw compressor, timing gears ensure that the male and female rotors maintain precise alignment. In an oil-flooded rotary-screw compressor, lubricating oil bridges the space between the rotors, both providing a hydraulic seal and transferring mechanical energy between the driving and driven rotor. Gas enters at the suction side and moves through the threads as the screws rotate. The meshing rotors force the gas through the compressor, and the gas exits at the end of the screws.[1]
The effectiveness of this mechanism is dependent on precisely fitting clearances between the helical rotors and between the rotors and the chamber for sealing of the compression cavities. However, some leakage is inevitable, and high rotational speeds must be used to minimize the ratio of leakage flow rate over effective flow rate.


BOTH A SCREW TYPE AND A LOBE TYPE compress air by meshing the screws/lobes so that there is a difference in the amount of space between the screws/lobes where the air comes in and where the air goes out. The greater that difference, the greater the P/R. The difference between the types is in the way the air is moved through them.



LEARN before you spout bullshit.



Jaden

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Gforce

You are a bit out of date with this thinking. All season tires have taken a big leap forward in the last few years. The current DWS is an amazingly versatile tire. The predecessor was almost as good.

Actually, the DWS is quite competent in winter, just not on a BRZ. It is entirely feasible to run the DWS as an all weather tire all year. Nokian WR also but they are more oriented to winter capability then summer. Again, I would not put them on a BRZ.

The BRZ is comically incompetent in winter, although I will give it full marks for controllable slides with stability and traction control off. You are not likely to hit any guard rails assuming you know how to hang the tail out in the dry. With full winter tires on of course or you'll get nowhere.

Originally Posted by Gforce

You are out of date about the capabilities of all season tires. Since 2013 at least high performance all season tires are just that, and they work in cold weather also.

The BRZ just isn't very good in snow or on ice but it corners just fine on snow or ice. You just cannot get any power down. It's not the tires, it's the suspension geometry and the Torsen.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

And yet again here you go with the bad advice.
There is not an all season tire made that will compete with a proper winter tire. or will work well at any temperature below zero. Sure they are indeed better than they used to be but they are still way below dedicated winter tires (especially with ice).

The FRS is a tank in the snow or ice with proper winter tires. I put 1,000 kilometers a week on my FRS through the worst winter can throw at me and have not had a single incident. Not one. Traction control will save your ass in slippery conditions. Knowing how to hang the tail out in the dry will not help if you are sliding in the ice or snow no matter what you think your skills are.

People PLEASE do not listen to this joker! He will get you killed.

Originally Posted by Gforce

You are mistaken. Tire engineering has moved on a long way since you formed your opinions. Indeed, even four years ago I would have argued as you do today. But you are now just wrong.

This chassis is pathetically incompetent in winter. The fact that you think otherwise confirms you do not know how to drive, in winter or summer. Everybody who knows anything about driving knows that this chassis is incompetent even in the wet, let alone actual snow. Relying on traction or stability control to "save your ass" as you so amusingly put it, reveals that you do not know enough about car control to be expressing such opinions.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8212

As for advocating killing yourself, well, we each have the ultimate responsibility to know our own limits. I know from your posts that I'm a better driver than you'll ever be. But, keep those sandbags in your trunk and do NOT disable your stability control,it might be dangerous ... for you.

Originally Posted by Gforce

Since you asked, like everyone else I drive every winter. To help you with the maths that would be once every year, at least. How weird you came to the same conclusion about the great tire for this car being the Michelin A/S 3, but I thought of them first. It's a pretty obvious choice if you understand the problems with getting ultra high performance summer tires like the Supersports up to temperature on the street.

As for experience with snow tires it would be amusing to compare tire experience. My current snow tires are Sottozero Serie II. What are you struggling by with?

Before you embark on this little ego battle I should warn you I can go a lot further back then you can. So, I've driven on more types of snow tire in more types of conditions than you have. Guaranteed.

After you.....

Originally Posted by Gforce

I think you used the word ego first. That ends that discussion. See above. First use

I never suggested an all season tire could replace a winter tire, you assumed that. You said it over and over and over and over. Then changed your tune

Whether a DWS is going to be a better choice than a winter tire is not a simple question to answer, yet you recommended a winter tire based on seriously out dated information. Winter tires are a very bad choice now for many areas where winter is neither very cold nor very snowy. I repeatedly stated in heavy snow, extreme cold or ice condition. You just chose to ignore it and ramble on.

That ends that discussion neatly. You have never "discussed" anything but simply babbled in random directions.

My views on Superchargers are absolutely correct. Yes. If it was 1973 and you were running a blower on your carb it would be. Since neither apply you are way off base.

My views on the inadequacy of the BRZ chassis are held in common with a significant number of expert drivers. You just choose to ignore them. That takes care of your other point. Once again show us these reports by these "experts". You are not an expert.

Interestingly, we agree that the latest all season tires work well on this chassis. I now suspect you know as well as I do why that is the case. Care to make a straightforward admission about that or did you just buy the wrong tire? I never implied otherwise and have advocated them since before you ever showed up here. They are just not snow tires.

I am now 100% convinced that I have been debating with a 16 year old that lays many claims to automotive knowledge and mad driving skills but has neither. Not one direct question was ever answered other than with "well you just aren't experienced as me" but since playing video games does not count as real driving I am sure that anybody with 2 or more years on the road greatly exceeds any time spent by Gforce.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I am now 100% convinced that I have been debating with a 16 year old that lays many claims to automotive knowledge and mad driving skills but has neither. Not one direct question was ever answered other than with "well you just aren't experienced as me" but since playing video games does not count as real driving I am sure that anybody with 2 or more years on the road greatly exceeds any time spent by Gforce.

He thinks his views on superchargers are correct and at the same time thinks a screw type supercharger makes boost by forcing more air than the engine can ingest and letting it back up in the intake until it's FORCED into the engine.

He thinks this even AFTER I described exactly how it ACTUALLY makes boost. A 16 year old troll is probably being too generous.

Jaden

p.s. if you guys need any further proof that he is a troll, just look at his latest post in the edlebrock thread. I won't feed the troll any more.