Heel Toe Around Town?

[wheelhaus]

Originally Posted by Iceman

As simple as that. In fact, on low-speed situations it's actually harder to get it done right and smooth, so makes better practice.

Most people think that heel and toe (as well as double clutching/rev matching, however you wanna call it) is only useful on spirited driving or racing, but in normal driving it takes away some stress from the drivetrain when downshifting and translates into a smoother ride. Passengers won't notice at all when you downshift if it's done right.

This. The amount of wear it prevents is negligible, so there's no real need or necessity. Many of us do it because it's enjoyable. This IS a driver's car, right? Let us enjoy it!

Originally Posted by kthxbai

In town it's rare for the need to heel-toe...however I agree with practicing when it is safe.

Outside of racing, there's rarely ever a NEED for heel/toe on the street. The point is that some people simply enjoy doing it.

Originally Posted by SC David

This. This car is set up so that you've gotta be hard on the brakes to get the alignment of your right foot correct. I always found it easy to heel-toe BMWs and Porsches... Heel on the brake pedal feels unnatural to me...

This may be an effect of the top hinged gas pedal vs low hinge in BMW and Porche.
You may be able to adjust the brake pedal so it engages slightly deeper in the stroke.

Originally Posted by SuiSid3l

This, I blip and heel toe every chance I get...only way to practice. And you dont have to drive "reckless" or like a maniac to do it.

This. Some people just think it's fun. :happy0180:

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Looks like it boils down to people who claim "it isn't hard/is necessary to be smooth" and those who claim they "don't press the brake hard enough/slow down quick enough to warrant or make a heel/toe smooth/necessary".

I'd love to take a ride along with someone who does it everywhere and claims it isn't reckless, thanks for the insight guys, feel free to keep argu- discussing.
:happy0180:

When you're learning on public roads it can certainly feel reckless, or if you've ridden with someone who wasn't very skilled. Your leg's muscle memory can't make sense of what you're trying to do wih the pedals, and include timing the clutch, gear change, and consistent brake pressure and you have a pretty good mindfuck going on. Only after lots and lots of practice does it become second nature.

Originally Posted by Gixxersixxerman

I could be wrong.. It's been some time since I heel toe a sporty car.. This one does it for me because auto.. But there is a big difference from heel toeing at 3k as opposed to 6-7k.. I blip the throttle on my bike every time out of habit from my racing days.. And on the track is a big difference then puttin around the streets.. So the practice makes perfect reasoning, to me at least, is a crock.. You get used to it on the streets your not properly doing it at the track..

I give props to the ones that spoke the truth.. They do it because it sounds cool

I believe rev matching is way different then heel toeing.. I rev match any chance I get..

I have to disagree, the motions are the same track vs. street, so why does practicing at different RPM/speed/braking load mean that nothing whatsoever carries over? Granted, the environment is different, but developing the muscle memory for the motions is a huge benefit. Rev matching is nearly the same as heel and toe, the ony difference is the addition of brake application, but this may be semantics.

Originally Posted by whaap

...Blipping is arbitrarily punching and releasing the throttle while down shifting. That makes being at the right rpms, when the clutch is released, sort-of-a hit and miss. You will hear a lot of motorcycles blipping and as far as I'm concened they're only showing off their pipes.

I wholeheartedly disagree, a blip can be just as controlled as holding the revs at a specific RPM. The only difference is that a blip can be done more quickly, but requires tighter control and timing. And motorcycles blipping to downshift is only showing off? Sorry but if I'm downshifting a few gears, or while braking, I'm not going to waste my time gently holding the RPM for each down gear. I'm going to blip precisely and release the clutch. Done in a split second. I may love the sound, but sequential downshifting is completely functional and a requirement for how motorcycles work. If you see the "blip" as improper execution, then maybe you've been exposed to some really sloppy "blippers". I aim to blip to the exact rpm I need, and it never feels sloppy or jerky.

Originally Posted by Porsche

LOL!
I expect that he wisely decided to leave these ignorant, rude, disrespectful, and UNSKILLED Americans strictly alone.
There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see…

Was this really necessary? I'd have expected more from you, good sir.

Originally Posted by Marchy

Would you rather replace your clutch over your brakes? Correct me if i'm wrong but changing brakes is easier than changing a clutch.

This is a stupid argument although people like to focus on it. The wear one way or the other is marginal. If someone really wants to argue technicalities, properly executed rev matching/heel toe/double clutch techniques require nearly ZERO clutch slip. That's the whole point.

[2point0]

I'm getting sick of this whole blipping thread.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by phloozy

1)slow the car down
2)put the car in 2nd and leave the clutch and break down until i reach ~15mph
3)move the foot that was on the break to gas and engage 2nd gear.....

at no point did I need to heal toe

This is why I said:

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

If you want to (a) be in the right gear at all times, and (b) rev-match your downshifts to save wear on your clutch and syncros, I don't see a way to do that without heel-toe. Happy to hear your thoughts though.

When you're slowing the car down with the brakes from 50 mph --> 15 mph, but leaving the transmission in 6th/N, you're not in the right gear. Does it matter? No, I don't think it's much of a safety issue and it doesn't really matter to me how others drive stick, but that is the reason I (and others) heel-toe on the street. While slowing down, it keeps you in the right gear.

And as others have said, it's fun, good practice, and there's no reason not to if you're able/comfortable.

[Ryeong86]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Bit of a disagreement regarding whether or not Heel/Toe is useful for around town driving, curious to see where everybody stands on it.

Personally, completely unnecessary around town, I don't even hit the brakes hard enough to get my heel down to the gas peddle for a controlled blip and even if I do, it's never long enough to get in a smooth shift (which is the entire point, smoothness). If you're slowing down hard enough to require a downshift while you're still on the brakes, you're probably driving in a manner which can be deemed as reckless. This discussion should be entirely about daily driving, getting groceries etc., midnight racers and stoplight jockeys will be laughed at and track junkies should understand the difference.


Stay safe.

heel and toe is really meant for high speed entry for turns anyways.... to prevent loss of power when down shifting/ slowing down. I don't heel and toe in around the town driving, it's pretty pointless.

[SkullWorks]

Originally Posted by Freetime

Complete bunk.


Whether you want to believe it or not, clutch wear occurs every time you push the clutch in and let it back out.

The friction is what wears it.


But don't kid yourself that all that extra clutch and in out isn't prematurely wearing the clutch compared to someone who drives "normally"

you sir have a COMPLETELY BUNK understanding of how a clutch works, sorry,

the only correct statement you made is in bold, the rest actually contradicts that statement. if the flywheel and input shaft are spinning the same speed when you release the clutch (the result of a proper rev matched down shift) there will be far less friction and therefore far less clutch wear.

this is the reason forums suck, people that half half an idea suddenly think they are mechanical engineers and can explain away perfectly good logic by reliving a story another moron told them.

Next time you THINK you have something intelligent to say phrase it as a question, that way when someone has to contradict you it wont have to be so harsh,

[Freetime]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

you sir have a COMPLETELY BUNK understanding of how a clutch works, sorry,

the only correct statement you made is in bold, the rest actually contradicts that statement. if the flywheel and input shaft are spinning the same speed when you release the clutch (the result of a proper rev matched down shift) there will be far less friction and therefore far less clutch wear.

this is the reason forums suck, people that half half an idea suddenly think they are mechanical engineers and can explain away perfectly good logic by reliving a story another moron told them.

Next time you THINK you have something intelligent to say phrase it as a question, that way when someone has to contradict you it wont have to be so harsh,

It is my understanding that the synchros are what absorb the shock of the mismatched speeds and make sure the input shaft and flywheel are spinning at the same speed (ie synchronized). Is this not the case?

[SkullWorks]

no the synchros make sure the counter shaft and main shaft are spinning the same speed

[wheelhaus]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

you sir have a COMPLETELY BUNK understanding of how a clutch works, sorry,

the only correct statement you made is in bold, the rest actually contradicts that statement. if the flywheel and input shaft are spinning the same speed when you release the clutch (the result of a proper rev matched down shift) there will be far less friction and therefore far less clutch wear.

this is the reason forums suck, people that half half an idea suddenly think they are mechanical engineers and can explain away perfectly good logic by reliving a story another moron told them.

Next time you THINK you have something intelligent to say phrase it as a question, that way when someone has to contradict you it wont have to be so harsh,

QFT. The clutch operates similarly to brake pad and rotors, if there's no difference in speed between the clutch disc and the pressure plate/flywheel assembly when they engage the disc, there is no friction, thus no wear. Ok, the clutch springs and the throw out bearing see some wear if you really want to nitpick...

The same could be said for double clutching, it uses the engine to match the input shaft speed to the rest of the transmission so the synchros are at match speed before the gear is selected. Thus, the synchros do virtually nothing.

[FRSPirate]

Originally Posted by phloozy

1)slow the car down
2)put the car in 2nd and leave the clutch and break down until i reach ~15mph
3)move the foot that was on the break to gas and engage 2nd gear.....

at no point did I need to heal toe

I hope you change your style...this is dangerous. There are laws imposed by most law enforcement agencies strictly against coasting for any period of time longer than it takes to shift into another gear. How do i know? My route to work has a huge grade i drive through daily. I used to coast down the grade "to save gas" and was pulled over one time by CHP. The officer asked me if i was coasting down the grade because my car was absolutely quiet until the freeway leveled off then he heard me rev match into gear. I told him yes and he let me off with a warning stating that while driving i should always be in full control of my vehicle just in case of an emergency situation and that cannot be done while coasting down the hill in neutral. Now you are going to say "but i didn't say i was in neutral...i said was in gear"... I don't know you but most people tend to panic in an emergency and if you are in 2nd with the clutch in coasting @50mph (lets make it a little more exciting) lets say while its raining and downhill...if you panic and pop that clutch out to hit your brakes your wheels with shift lock. In the rain downhill loss of control like this will most likely equal an accident.

I heel toe all day every day. Why because for me it results in a balanced planted car coming into a corner and torque on power ready. Also, practice makes perfect! Its not about being able to blip the throttle or slamming on the brakes to heel toe...its about learning to be consistent with your inputs. Holding consistent brake pressure or even making small adjustments while modulating your feel and other parts of your body just equal in better control of your vehicle whether or not you are racing/tracking or driving like grandma.

Edit:
You don't need to be hard on the brakes to heel toe...if you say you do, you can definitely benefit from a little more practice. And for those of you worried about wear on the clutch...i just heel toe shifted clutchless down a gear. That should guarantee no clutch wear. And save the clutchless shifting debate for the clutchless shifting thread. Search, it's there and call me out there on how bad it is for my synchro's not that it matters because i do/did it on all my cars with never a trans issue...ever.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

^ Also, I think you can lose some points on the drivers test if you are in a stick and you keep it in neutral (or in gear with the clutch depressed in that kind of a manner) since you are not technically in control. I thought I had heard that before.

[Bullnettles]

Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83

But are your buddies who killed their clutches at 60k people who are always going to the track or something? 60k is not the "typical" life time for a clutch, and anyone who thinks that either doesn't know how to drive or is always pushing their car. I heel-toe and rev-match all the time. My Evo just hit 61k miles yesterday, and the clutch feels just like it did (or pretty close to) when I bought it brand new. And we're talking about a car with 286 hp and 289 lb-ft stock. It doesn't get abused or tracked, but let's just say that I don't baby the car when corners are around.

I don't doubt the numbers you posted about your previous Toyota, but unless you had a Supra, it was likely something where it wasn't exactly putting out a lot of power... so the clutch doesn't have a lot of stress to begin with and is likely to last since it's not dealing with a lot.

^This. Also, are they launching from lights at 3-4K? Heel-toe minimizes clutch wear by matching it so it doesn't wear as much. If you're not rev-matching, you're tearing up the clutch more because of the difference in speeds.

Good article below

http://www.edmunds.com/how-to/heel-a...downshift.html

[SubieNate]

Disclaimer: I do it for fun and for smoothness. Everything below this is secondary.

With the above in mind, I heel-toe daily and have been for the last 4 years or so. At first I could only do it smoothly when I was driving fast, now, in general, I can do it so that the shift is nearly imperceptible at any speed as long as I'm paying attention to what gear I'm in and the speed etc. After a couple years of doing it daily it just becomes part of how you drive, there's not really any fanfare or theater about the whole thing. At low revs the sounds the car makes are even relatively mild.

As a secondary point, I have to agree with @FRSPirate.

I like to be in full control of my car at all times. That means being in a gear where the car's power is useful. Brakes can help me stop if something in front of me is going awry. If I need to get on the power I don't want to have to guess which gear to go into from neutral if I was previously coasting in neutral, or have to shift because I'm in 4th at 1800 rpm because I didn't downshift beforehand.

Here's a few situations where being in the wrong gear can cause problems:

You're slowing down for a turn. You leave the car in a high gear and plan to downshift after you've completed the turn. You see someone coming up behind you too fast, talking on their cellphone. Your car has the capability to accelerate and get around the corner and out of the way faster, but you either bog the car, or in your panic to get into a more proper gear, choose the wrong one or delay and you get rear ended.

You're slowing down for a turn. You put it in neutral. Same scenario as before. Without thinking you stomp the gas to get out of the way. Nothing happens except a lot of noise. You get rear ended. Alternatively, you pick the wrong gear. The delay caused by having to shift combined with the surprise of either the sudden spike in revs or lack thereof causes you to get rear ended.

It's raining. You're coming up on a turn. You preemptively shift down from 5th into neutral and then into 2nd right before the turn. As you exit the turn, you let the clutch out. You were going faster than you expected and should have revved the car up more and/or taken the turn in 3rd. The sudden jerk from the drivetrain causes your rear wheels to loose traction. You spin the car and look like a yob.

I can think of more examples but I'd rather not write a novel. Bottom line, the car should as much as is humanly possible, be in an appropriate gear. My general method is to simply rev match and engine brake down to 2nd and then brake and into neutral as I get very close to a stop. But if I'm coming up on a turn and need to slow down a bit quicker than that, I heel toe because I like to be in an appropriate gear at all times. If I'm slowing just using engine braking and suddenly traffic in front of me slows significantly and unexpectedly, I heel toe because I like to be in an appropriate gear at all times. And referencing the first line of this post, sometimes I do it just because I enjoy it and I like the practice.

I've given all kinds of people rides in the last four years and not once has anyone spoke up about my driving being reckless or jerky or boy racerish (Well, aside from my mom. ). That includes going on dates where that type of driving is not a good idea. Making a lady uncomfortable =/= successful night.

Heel-toe/revmatching/keeping the car in gear if at all possible just eliminates any guesswork as well. If something unexpected happens I can count on the car to react in a predictable manner. I don't have to decide in a split second which gear to jam it into, I don't have to worry about dropping the clutch fast enough, but not so fast I break traction, I don't have to guess where to revmatch to from neutral or from some gear 3 gears up from the new gear. I memorize the revmatches between 6-5, 5-4, 4-3, 3-2, and unless something happens seriously suddenly and I need to skip a gear or two to really get out of something's way, I can keep things perfectly smooth and know exactly what's going on.

Cheers
Nathan

[DM7]

I heel toe all the time and always approach a slow corner or full stop in 2nd gear. Heel toe is a driving technique that has become synonymous with performance driving so most people only learn of heel toe down shifting in a performance/racing context. Heel toe can be used responsibly and performed discretely in traffic on public roads.

I find heel toe most useful when approaching slower traffic where I need to slow down but also anticipate not having to stop. I find decelerating in gear allows me to focus on the traffic situation ahead as opposed to taking the transmission out of gear and having to find the correct gear and engine speed afterwards.

I also never go through a corner in neutral or ride the clutch. You can comfortably and responsibly complete turns at an intersection in 2nd gear at 1500-2000rpm. I prefer to brake and select the correct gear at the same time as I approach a corner. This does not mean late braking from a high speed. When I exit the corner all I have to do is apply the throttle and accelerate out and no this does not mean full throttle with tires smoking. I prefer to not have to worry about selecting the correct gear, finding the correct rpm and then accelerate away.

By heel toe down shifting into a corner, you are overlapping the two processes of braking and selecting a lower gear as opposed to braking, completing the corner, getting back into gear and then accelerating away one step at a time. It's just more efficient to heel toe and does not have to be done at racing speeds to be executed smoothly.

Just as you wouldn't power shift full throttle and slam the gear selector into each gear every time you accelerate, heel and toe down shifting can be done under light braking, with small throttle inputs while slowly selecting the next gear; it just requires precise control of the pedals. When I first started to learn to heel toe I was awful at it. There are a lot of different things to think about in a short amount of time. I had a hard time moving the gear selector 'backwards'. I would either apply too little or too much brake force too early or too late as I approached a corner or stop. I would also apply too much or too little throttle. It takes practice and patience to get all of these motions smoothed out and it eventually just became muscle memory.

I have test driven an FR-S and I heel toe'd as I normally would and did not drive aggressively; the salesman even said "Don't hold back just because I'm here". As the brakes were new I had to adjust my technique to be able to apply the throttle while applying minimal brake pressure. I found the throttle to be programmed aggressively in the FR-S, the engine accelerates very rapidly so a tiny bit of throttle goes a long way. I also found the pedals to be well spaced for heel toe.

The Senna video is an excellent illustration of precise pedal control it’s like he is massaging the pedals. He operates the pedals delicately but maintains full control at all times.

Driving is like dancing in the sense that one person leads and the other follows. The leader has the responsibility to control the tempo and rhythm of the dance. They can choose to be aggressive and powerful; or be delicate and full of finesse. When you’re behind the steering wheel, you decide how your driving is preformed.

[GT 86 Brah]

i only do it when im spiritedly driving around a turn or if i really have to due to morons which is pretty rare...