Heel Toe Around Town?

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I think that's what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around, I have exactly zero instances (in traffic) where I need to brake AND downshift at the same time, I usually just downshift and let the fuel cutoff/compressor mode do the work of slowing down and brake from second/third gear down to whatever speed I need. The distance I need to push the brake to get it "below" the gas pedal is further than I ever push it in daily driving.

If you're in 6th gear going 50 mph down a major road and want to make a sharp, 15 mph 90-degree turn into your neighborhood, what do you do? For me, the process goes:

1) Slow the car using the brakes
2) Heel-toe downshift into 4th
3) Heel-toe downshift into 2nd
4) Release brakes and make the turn
5) Accelerate out of turn in 2nd

If you want to (a) be in the right gear at all times, and (b) rev-match your downshifts to save wear on your clutch and syncros, I don't see a way to do that without heel-toe. Happy to hear your thoughts though.

[chillywilly]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

If you're in 6th gear going 50 mph down a major road and want to make a sharp, 15 mph 90-degree turn into your neighborhood, what do you do? For me, the process goes:

1) Slow the car using the brakes
2) Heel-toe downshift into 4th
3) Heel-toe downshift into 2nd
4) Release brakes and make the turn
5) Accelerate out of turn in 2nd

If you want to (a) be in the right gear at all times, and (b) rev-match your downshifts to save wear on your clutch and syncros, I don't see a way to do that without heel-toe. Happy to hear your thoughts though.

I suppose I drive like a grandpa compared to you haha... but I usually brake and remain in gear until I need to shift into neutral to prevent stalling, hang in neutral for a split second until I'm finished braking then rev match before shift into 2nd or 3rd and roll thru the turn. Edit: I take my sweet time rev matching without heel-toe

My driving style is very conservative but it gets me roughly 28.5mpg with 80% city 20% hwy.

[SuiSid3l]

Originally Posted by Freetime

no. because I would rather replace brakes than replace the clutch.

This, the previous suggestion completely negates the reason for blipping the throttle.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by Marchy

Would you rather replace your clutch over your brakes? Correct me if i'm wrong but changing brakes is easier than changing a clutch.

But while heel-toeing (and rev-matching) use your clutch, it doesn't suddenly deteriorate its lifespan any more quickly than when you don't do it. It's negligible, unless you're doing it incorrectly. But you are correct about brakes being easier and cheaper to replace, but that happens far more frequently, but if anything, the technique of heel-toeing and rev-matching help prolong your clutch versus the techniques that most drivers of manuals use, particularly outside of the enthusiast crowd who don't do either at all.

However, go on any forum and look for posts where guys say that they just barely changed their clutch, and their car has ridiculously high mileage, one that surprises you for how long their OEM clutch lasted. The vast majority of those guys probably heel-toed and rev-matched throughout the clutch's life.

[Bullnettles]

How is this even a poll? If in a stick shift, it's better for your clutch to rev match before you change gears. If you're braking on the highway and don't want to waste time rev matching AFTER you've slowed, then you heel-toe to get in the proper gear. Otherwise, you're in neutral on a damn highway for longer than necessary (much less control of your car, which is bad). As said much earlier, there are no downsides, under you mess up, but you should perfect it before you do it around people anyway. Foot slips, funny stuff will happen. Anyone here "heel-toe" with the sides of their foot instead of an actual heel-toe? I can do both, but luckily my feet are wide enough to take the easy way out.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by chillywilly

I suppose I drive like a grandpa compared to you haha... but I usually brake and remain in gear until I need to shift into neutral to prevent stalling, hang in neutral for a split second until I'm finished braking then rev match before shift into 2nd or 3rd and roll thru the turn.

My driving style is very conservative but it gets me roughly 28.5mpg with 80% city 20% hwy.

I think I used to take turns like that before learning how to heel-toe (I've been heel-toeing daily for 5+ years now, so it's a bit hard to remember how I used to do it). The only thing I don't like about that technique is that I like to be in the proper gear throughout the turn. So I wouldn't want to be in 6th or N entering the turn, then have to rev-match and shift into 2nd part-way through it. Seems more ideal to me to be in 2nd prior to entering the turn. Not judging you or anyone else who drives that way though, everyone should drive however they feel comfortable.

BTW believe it or not, I'm not that aggressive of a driver on my daily commute. I'm averaging about 27 mpg (28.5 indicated) in 80% city driving. It's less about driving aggressively (or wanting to hear my exhaust note/showing off, as others have asserted) as it is just being in the proper gear before entering a turn.

[Brently]

Watching the videos and reading these posts make me think I don't even know how to drive anymore. Ugh.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

If you're in 6th gear going 50 mph down a major road and want to make a sharp, 15 mph 90-degree turn into your neighborhood

Here's my process as I do have something similar (although there is a turn lane the last 30 feet of this process):

1. Know where my turn is.
2. 6th gear 50 mph is something like 2.4k rpm, lift until down to 2k rpm, turn on blinker
3. Rev match downshift > 5 > 4 > 3 > 2, at that point I'll probably be spinning around 4k rpm doing about 30 mph, all with no brakes
4. Lightly apply brakes
5. Turn
6. Power on from 15 up to 25 mph from just before apex out

Pre-emptive, yes I know skipping gears is faster and more economical but this is just my current method.

[phloozy]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

If you're in 6th gear going 50 mph down a major road and want to make a sharp, 15 mph 90-degree turn into your neighborhood, what do you do? For me, the process goes:

1) Slow the car using the brakes
2) Heel-toe downshift into 4th
3) Heel-toe downshift into 2nd
4) Release brakes and make the turn
5) Accelerate out of turn in 2nd

If you want to (a) be in the right gear at all times, and (b) rev-match your downshifts to save wear on your clutch and syncros, I don't see a way to do that without heel-toe. Happy to hear your thoughts though.

1)slow the car down
2)put the car in 2nd and leave the clutch and break down until i reach ~15mph
3)move the foot that was on the break to gas and engage 2nd gear.....

at no point did I need to heal toe

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Here's my process as I do have something similar (although there is a turn lane the last 30 feet of this process):

1. Know where my turn is.
2. 6th gear 50 mph is something like 2.4k rpm, lift until down to 2k rpm, turn on blinker
3. Rev match downshift > 5 > 4 > 3 > 2, at that point I'll probably be spinning around 4k rpm doing about 30 mph, all with no brakes
4. Lightly apply brakes
5. Turn
6. Power on from 15 up to 25 mph from just before apex out

Pre-emptive, yes I know skipping gears is faster and more economical but this is just my current method.

Ah that does sound similar to the way I do it, except (if I'm reading your post correctly) you don't brake until you hit about 30 mph. Engine braking through the gears slows you from 50 --> 30 mph, then you're on the brakes from 30 --> 15 mph in 2nd, and complete the turn.

I guess that's another way to do it, although I suspect I do brake/slow the car later than you before the turn. Haha so I guess this would be one instance where I am the more aggressive driver.

BTW your technique would seem to be really easy on the brakes! Also I do sometimes downshift through all the gears, really just depends how lazy I'm feeling. Usually I'm lazy and skip

[Freetime]

Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83

However, go on any forum and look for posts where guys say that they just barely changed their clutch, and their car has ridiculously high mileage, one that surprises you for how long their OEM clutch lasted. The vast majority of those guys probably heel-toed and rev-matched throughout the clutch's life.

Complete bunk. Everytime I talk to guys who heel toe, rev-match, etc say they had to change clutches at 60k and "that's typical life time for a clutch".
My previous toyota was 19 years old and 160k miles. original clutch that worked like the day I bought it. I don't heel toe, I don't rev match, I don't blip. I just drive the damn thing. Whether you want to believe it or not, clutch wear occurs every time you push the clutch in and let it back out. The friction is what wears it. Aside from being overly rough on it, then the less times you clutch in and out, the less wear on the clutch plates.

That said, drive however makes you happy. That's why you bought the car. But don't kid yourself that all that extra clutch and in out isn't prematurely wearing the clutch compared to someone who drives "normally"

[naikaidriver]

I wonder if people who drive little econo-sh!tboxes with manual transmissions have debates on whether or not to heel-toe their cars...

Somehow, I doubt it immensely.

Scott

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by Freetime

Complete bunk. Everytime I talk to guys who heel toe, rev-match, etc say they had to change clutches at 60k and "that's typical life time for a clutch".
My previous toyota was 19 years old and 160k miles. original clutch that worked like the day I bought it. I don't heel toe, I don't rev match, I don't blip. I just drive the damn thing. Whether you want to believe it or not, clutch wear occurs every time you push the clutch in and let it back out. The friction is what wears it. Aside from being overly rough on it, then the less times you clutch in and out, the less wear on the clutch plates.

That said, drive however makes you happy. That's why you bought the car. But don't kid yourself that all that extra clutch and in out isn't prematurely wearing the clutch compared to someone who drives "normally"

But are your buddies who killed their clutches at 60k people who are always going to the track or something? 60k is not the "typical" life time for a clutch, and anyone who thinks that either doesn't know how to drive or is always pushing their car. I heel-toe and rev-match all the time. My Evo just hit 61k miles yesterday, and the clutch feels just like it did (or pretty close to) when I bought it brand new. And we're talking about a car with 286 hp and 289 lb-ft stock. It doesn't get abused or tracked, but let's just say that I don't baby the car when corners are around.

I don't doubt the numbers you posted about your previous Toyota, but unless you had a Supra, it was likely something where it wasn't exactly putting out a lot of power... so the clutch doesn't have a lot of stress to begin with and is likely to last since it's not dealing with a lot.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by naikaidriver

I wonder if people who drive little econo-sh!tboxes with manual transmissions have debates on whether or not to heel-toe their cars...

Somehow, I doubt it immensely.

Scott

They argue about mpg-maximizing techniques instead