Compression ratio 12.5:1. Bye-bye Super charger & Turbo build?

[Do Boy]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

2700 is with a full tank vs the quoted figures. So right in the middle.

I guess if it's low 2700 it could go either way. That's about the weight of an Integra.

Yes I am a 1/4 mile guy. And I am getting this car for that. I could honestly care less what some of you guys on here say "oh if you want to go fast in a straight line this is the wrong car" blah blah blah. Guess what it's my car I'm buying it for my purpose so why can't most people just leave it at that? All the cars I have owned have been built for drag strip purposes. That's just how Houston is I guess. We don't have much of a fallowing for lap times. I have two shops that will hook me up on custom fab work at cost. I just pay for supplies and they spot the labor. I just have to sport there name. Inline Racing(ILR) he has done some amazing work with All motor Hondas. South Side Performance(SSP) New shop, but does have some amzaing work with GT-Rs, Evos, STIs and Turbo Hondas. So either way I'm going with this car. It's balanced out great, RWD and lightweight. Most import cars today aren't engineered to go in a straight line anyways, GT-Rs Evos STIs 370Zs etc etc. All were engineered to go around the track with the quickest lap time possible. But guess what AMS, ILR, SSP, Melon Racing, Secret Service, J-Tran Stuidos etc etc all build these cars to go down the drag strip anyways. This car for me is meant to go down the quart mile at the fastest time It can within the power goals I want. Which depending on weight and how the motor is built would be around 400whp or 230whp.

I know most on here will prolly use the car for AutoX, Road Racing, and drifting. So HP may not be your guys goal. But it's mine. I hope to be a valued member on this board one day letting you guys know the ups and downs of building this car for that purpose.


Anthony

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by coyote

I have no interest in drag racing, but here's my engine builder's 1996 WRX.

http://www.youtube.com/user/EBSANE#p/a/u/0/hq0OkQ1KawE

I bought my first one in 1994, so they hardly came out in 2001.

I was discussing the U.S. situation. The first gen WRX/STI was never sold in the states.

There were hardly ANY Subaru enthusiasts here up to that point, and they only had the 2.5 N/A motor in the 2.5RS models to work with, so there really weren't any shops here in the states working with the turbo motors until the '02 WRX finally was sold here.

I joined the party about a year before the WRX came out, so I got to witness the madness, pretty much like being here a year before this car comes out, LOL!

Originally Posted by coyote

FB25 block is the only way you'll get near 280hp NA.

I was thinking about this last night...

If and I mean IF the FB25 shortblock is compatible with the FA20 heads, then this might be a good option. You would probably have to keep the FA20 crankshaft and rods (the FB rods are bent) and use the FB25 pistons or some custom pistons, but this MIGHT be a way to increase displacement.

A lot of the guys here with 1.8L Imprezas from the '90's build what they call "High Compression Frankenstein" motors by utilizing the shortblock from the 2.2 and combining it with the 1.8 heads. Increases compression AND displacement, making for good power.

This also works with the 2.2 heads in conjunction with the 2.5 block, but its slightly more tricky.

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Like that fact that it can feed baby seals and can cause global cooling? Try me for E85 issues, I know stuff, people, or I can find a solution. Although in Cali you are screwed no matter what. Can't help you with that.

Tuning for it in the first place, finding it is the second issue, and the inconsistencies from what I've tuning shops tell me about the actual octane rating of the fuel...

I'm pretty lucky though, the closest station too me sells E85, Diesel AND Biodiesel

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by PuGZoR

Don't know bout those in the USoA but here in sunny Queensland, Australia, exhaust emissions are virtually uncontrolled outside of manufacturer requirements. Occasionally you'll find mobile setup that tests for it but I was a hoon for a couple of years and never came across one. Hell, some guys even run without a cat converter on the roads despite the fact it can lead to a $15,000 fine. Worst you'll get other than that is a defect notice.

Each state has different laws. Some are uncontrolled, others quite stringy.

People say California is pretty bad but really its not. A new car doesn't have to get a SMOG check (tail pipe emissions inspection) for like 6 years, and a used car only every 2 years. So you can run whatever exhaust or intake you want, then swap it for stock when you go for your SMOG test.

There are SOME rolling emissions trucks, but they are few and far between and easily avoided.

They only reason I run a stock exhaust (at least stock header/cat) at this point is cause I got tired of swapping and it didn't make enough of a difference anyway to matter.

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Most if not all Toyota engines since the late 90s run forged cranks. If we are lucky, we might get rods and pistons too, but don't count out what could be achieved with stock pieces, forged or not.

My bet is the internals will be fine for N/A stuff. Crankshafts are a work of art in Subaru's and rarely need upgrading or modifying, but the rods are a guessing game at this point as are the pistons.

I'm betting that this engine is purposely choked from the factory. The GR and UR engines pick up anywhere from 20-30hp with basic bolt-ons. Granted, this doesn't have their displacement, but I'm sure 220hp is within the realm of possibility without that much effort.

Thats my guess too, about 220hp with bolt ons/tune, maybe more if the DI works better than expected.

And definitely this. It is a lack of development simply, no design constraint whatsoever. In fact, boxer engines ought to rev higher and harder than your run of the mill inline 4.

Highest I've seen is 8500-9000. There might be higher out there, but 8000+ is what the JDM STI's rev to.

Originally Posted by Do Boy

Yes I am a 1/4 mile guy. So HP may not be your guys goal. But it's mine.

I have no problem with this.

Honestly, this will be a GOOD car for the 1/4. I've seen early model Imprezas with WRX or STI swaps run 12's without any serious modifications to those motors (maybe a tune and an exhaust, but thats it).

With this car, I suspect a 400hp engine build and the low weight can get you into the low 11's, but with the even higher power engine builds out there the sky is the limit

[Allch Chcar]

Do boy, do you what suits you . I like racing and competition. No reason to hate on another's choices in style. It's all subjective and fun is the measurement.

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Tuning for it in the first place, finding it is the second issue, and the inconsistencies from what I've tuning shops tell me about the actual octane rating of the fuel...

I'm pretty lucky though, the closest station too me sells E85, Diesel AND Biodiesel

Squidn't that a coinkidence, I actually have an ink to the study with the octane and have it memorized. E85 is 95.8 octane (R+M) /2, but E50 is 96.5 so it's completely worthless for comparison. Tuners say C16 which is 116 octane and that's what the results say more or less.

For consistency running a very high strung setup, you need to go with a race blend for E85. But that is no different than race gas, except it's still pretty cheap. Still better than running Methanol.

[serialk11r]

To the people who want a stupid 8.0 CR: there is about 15% theoretical efficiency loss going from 12.5 to 8. There's a good reason they don't go that route :P

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

...
Yes. He did. In fact, he probably should have been a bigger **** about it.
...

X) Thanks Matador.

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Each state has different laws. Some are uncontrolled, others quite stringy.

People say California is pretty bad but really its not. A new car doesn't have to get a SMOG check (tail pipe emissions inspection) for like 6 years, and a used car only every 2 years. So you can run whatever exhaust or intake you want, then swap it for stock when you go for your SMOG test.

Cali is the worst as far as the US goes. They religiously follow the Federal emissions requirements and even exceed them in certain requirements. Plus officers can pull you over and ask you to pop the hood. KY, Federal emission law enforcement is nonexistent nor do we have emissions testing. Engine swaps are not even a concern, there are no inspections except for a minor import inspection for out of state cars. The only exception is noise laws but those are locational.

Originally Posted by serialk11r

To the people who want a stupid 8.0 CR: there is about 15% theoretical efficiency loss going from 12.5 to 8. There's a good reason they don't go that route :P

^This +1.

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Cali is the worst as far as the US goes. They religiously follow the Federal emissions requirements and even exceed them in certain requirements. Plus officers can pull you over and ask you to pop the hood. KY, Federal emission law enforcement is nonexistent nor do we have emissions testing. Engine swaps are not even a concern, there are no inspections except for a minor import inspection for out of state cars. The only exception is noise laws but those are locational.

Hood pops here are less frequent than advertised. Yes, certain areas (Freemont for example) are known for police that like to pull over certain makes and pop the hood, but CARB legal intakes bypass that problem as do tunes which are invisible.

Exhausts on Subaru motors are hard for anyone to recognize if they are modded too, because they are hidden under the motor. Uppipes on turbo motors can even pass SMOG tests without being spotted.

Noise isn't so much of an issue in California either, but if you drive around with a huge coffee can exhaust you are more likely to get pulled over than if you have a nicely crafted can that matches the look of the car.

If you are running around catless with a straightpipe and no resonator, thats a different story, LOL!!!

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Hood pops here are less frequent than advertised. Yes, certain areas (Freemont for example) are known for police that like to pull over certain makes and pop the hood, but CARB legal intakes bypass that problem as do tunes which are invisible.

Exhausts on Subaru motors are hard for anyone to recognize if they are modded too, because they are hidden under the motor. Uppipes on turbo motors can even pass SMOG tests without being spotted.

Noise isn't so much of an issue in California either, but if you drive around with a huge coffee can exhaust you are more likely to get pulled over than if you have a nicely crafted can that matches the look of the car.

If you are running around catless with a straightpipe and no resonator, thats a different story, LOL!!!

See that is still far more strict than here. I'm not trying to exaggerate and say people are pulled over and ticketed excessively.

It's a farcry from here because they can ask you to pop your hood and can ticket you for emissions or potentially take your car for an engine swap. That isn't happening here.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Do Boy

I guess if it's low 2700 it could go either way. That's about the weight of an Integra.

Yes I am a 1/4 mile guy. And I am getting this car for that. I could honestly care less what some of you guys on here say "oh if you want to go fast in a straight line this is the wrong car" blah blah blah. Guess what it's my car I'm buying it for my purpose so why can't most people just leave it at that? All the cars I have owned have been built for drag strip purposes. That's just how Houston is I guess. We don't have much of a fallowing for lap times. I have two shops that will hook me up on custom fab work at cost. I just pay for supplies and they spot the labor. I just have to sport there name. Inline Racing(ILR) he has done some amazing work with All motor Hondas. South Side Performance(SSP) New shop, but does have some amzaing work with GT-Rs, Evos, STIs and Turbo Hondas. So either way I'm going with this car. It's balanced out great, RWD and lightweight. Most import cars today aren't engineered to go in a straight line anyways, GT-Rs Evos STIs 370Zs etc etc. All were engineered to go around the track with the quickest lap time possible. But guess what AMS, ILR, SSP, Melon Racing, Secret Service, J-Tran Stuidos etc etc all build these cars to go down the drag strip anyways. This car for me is meant to go down the quart mile at the fastest time It can within the power goals I want. Which depending on weight and how the motor is built would be around 400whp or 230whp.

I know most on here will prolly use the car for AutoX, Road Racing, and drifting. So HP may not be your guys goal. But it's mine. I hope to be a valued member on this board one day letting you guys know the ups and downs of building this car for that purpose.


Anthony

Hey, It's your car, do what you want with it. I won't judge you and I'm sure most on here won't. We are just tired of the constant whinging "why no turbo? more powaaahhhh" as if we didn't already know that this would be the damn case at launch.

[coyote]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

We are just tired of the constant whinging "why no turbo? more powaaahhhh" as if we didn't already know that this would be the damn case at launch.

Yes, there is a lot of non-constructive whinging on here.

Subaru are building a car that will be a good little until in stock form and just about the best modification platform on the planet.

The way some of the kids here carry on, you'd think they were promised a $1000 GT3 for Christmas and now feel robbed.

[Abflug]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

And I am still betting a few years down the road there will be an engine update.

regarding to this post I wonder if Toyota/Subaru(/Yamaha) are able to increase the hp by further developing like Toyota/Yamaha did to the 3S-GE like this:

??

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Nobody has done 300hp, lots of people have talked about it and nobody has been anywhere close.

Is this the thread you were looking for?

forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125165

This is the car I mentioned with the nutty build for a racecar in Japan:

Not only JP. US tuner have done it too (but it's EJ25)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
September 20, 2005

Zzyzx [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]Motorsports[/COLOR][/COLOR] Impreza 2.5 RS breaks 300 NA horsepower

TechWorks Engineering (Calgary, Alberta, Canada), Dieman Motorsports (Lees Summit, MO) and Zzyzx Motorsports (Overland Park, KS) conspired to build the most powerful normally aspirated [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]Subaru[/COLOR][/COLOR] 2.5L Flat-4 in North America. At more than 300 CHP, the output shatters any previously documented efforts to date.

Utilizing an MD Mustang IMP dynomometer, the [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]engine[/COLOR][/COLOR] output hit 235 WHP at 6450 RPM and 209 WTQ at 4600 RPM. "We typically see 233 WHP for a WRX STi, which is rated at 300 CHP, comments Jake Diehl, owner of Dieman Motorsports. "This engine puts down roughly 185 WTQ at 2000 RPM and carries a nearly flat torque curve up to 4600 RPM where it makes 209 WTQ, then tapers off to roughly 185 WTQ at 6500 RPM. Though the peak of 209 WTQ is at 4600 RPM, peak numbers don't readily describe the output of this engine. There is more power under the curve than any stock STi can wish for. Based on the average WRX STi, WRX and 2.5 RS data for our dyno, we're looking at peak outputs of roughly 302 CHP, and 276 CTQ."

The longblock was built entirely by TechWorks Engineering. "The recipe for the engine is less exotic than most would guess.", comments Tom Penner, owner of TechWorks Engineering. This engine uses our off the shelf 11.2:1 CR forged pistons, Stage II SOHC Street cams and headwork to maximize both velocity and flow. We consider this a Stage III engine build as it requires high-[COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]octane[/COLOR][/COLOR] gas and stand-alone [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]engine [COLOR=blue ! important]management[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR], but simply lowering the compression ratio would still yield impressive output in a more streetable configuration." The TWE headers are a race-only 4-2-1 design, with large primaries. "The design of the headers was twofold: to provide power up top, and to lower dynamic compression in the lower RPMs to avoid torque spikes and detonation.", comments Tom. The trough in the torque curve from roughly 3000 to 4500 RPM is a direct result of the header design.

"I knew we needed to find a different intake manifold as the pre-2005 designs clearly are not meant to make power up top; this is a well documented.", comments Steve Sulatycki, owner of Zzyzx Motorsports. "Looking over the options, it appeared the 2005+ 2.5 RS intake manifold design was clearly superior and I decided to mate a high-flow 65mm [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]throttle[/COLOR][/COLOR] body to the '05 intake manifold. I had no idea what kind of numbers we'd be making."

"Once the car made it's first 220+ horsepower pull with very little timing and 11.5:1 AFRs we knew we had a strong motor on our hands. I proceeded to level out the AFRs to a very conservative 12:6:1 AFR and we started making pulls in the 230+ WHP range.", comments Jake. "As this engine was built and is being used for road [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]racing[/COLOR][/COLOR], we stayed with a conservative tune for longevity. This is no dyno queen, and these numbers are real-world, not one-offs."

"The engine makes power everywhere", comments Steve. "This kind of power is useable on the street, at an autocross or road racing. It's perhaps the most versatile power delivery you can ask for and the flat torque curve results in a very predictable and controllable chassis when you have the car at it's limits."

The dyno graph is available at the Zzyzx Motorsports website.

Contact Info:

Tom Penner
TechWorks Engineering
403-288-8568
http://www.techworkseng.com


Jake Diehl
Dieman Motorsports
816-347-1950
http://www.diemanmotorsports.com


Steve Sulatycki
Zzyzx Motorsports
913-706-5496
http://zzyzxmotorsports.com

[Kostamojen]

I forgot how close zzyzx got. He and TWE kind of disappeared after that, as did the place that did that dyno run.