Compression ratio 12.5:1. Bye-bye Super charger & Turbo build?

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

I had a photo of that engine a long time ago, I think it was in a tuner mag from Japan circa '99 or '00...

AHA! Found it!

http://www.7tune.com/1998-jtcc-syms-...impreza-wagon/



As you can see, a totally wild custom job.

More information about the car:

Originally Posted by Mach V Dan

Okay, one detail I remember from my Syms visit, that I think was on this motor, was that it used roller barrel throttle bodies. I understand these are used in motorcycles and fancy race cars. The idea is that when the throttle is open, there's no butterfly to get in the way of the flow.

--Dan
Mach V
FastWRX.com

Originally Posted by Mach V Dan

Last time I was at the Syms facility in Gunma, the car was sitting in their showroom. Here are my only pics...





It's been a while ago, but some details I remember about it:

- The engine was supposed to make 300hp. And yes, it's non-turbo.
- The whole engine/tranny was moved back for better weight distribution. The driver's seat is pushed back as well, and it's super-low.
- The fender flares are huge, as you can see. Wheels are center-lock type -- no lug nuts.
- It cost a huge amount of money to construct. I think the figure mentioned was $250,000.

--Dan
Mach V
FastWRX.com

More, in Japanese:

http://www.syms.co.jp/pages/history.html

Possibly the motor, not 100% sure:



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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Allch Chcar]

That is nutty. I still believe the reason there are no high HP boxers is because of the emphasis on turbo models not a design constraint. Honda has high HP N/A 2.0L and so does Matsuda with their MZR in the Miata. So it's not a displacement issue.

And we get the same fuel quality here, it's measured by (R+M) / 2. Don't people read gas pump signage? 91 US octane is 95 RON and 93 US octane is 98 RON.

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

That is nutty. I still believe the reason there are no high HP boxers is because of the emphasis on turbo models not a design constraint. Honda has high HP N/A 2.0L and so does Matsuda with their MZR in the Miata. So it's not a displacement issue.

This is pretty much true. Ressearch into N/A stuff was going on (mostly by COBB) until the WRX came out in '01. After that it was pretty much abandoned by shops due to lack of interest.

Although a few shops still managed to make tuning options for the latest cars and Intakes are still out there and a couple cam places like Delta Cam, but in general its a barren wasteland of tuning...

And we get the same fuel quality here, it's measured by (R+M) / 2. Don't people read gas pump signage? 91 US octane is 95 RON and 93 US octane is 98 RON.

There isn't any 93 octane in California anymore, but in the UK 91 is their "regular" unleaded petrol and they have up to 95 octane, and Japan I haven't been able to figure out exactly but they do have higher than 93 as their "high" octane fuel.

Basically, most other countries don't offer as low 87 octane and go higher than 91 or 93. But we do have E-85 which is quite high on the scale but comes with... different issues

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

This is pretty much true. Ressearch into N/A stuff was going on (mostly by COBB) until the WRX came out in '01. After that it was pretty much abandoned by shops due to lack of interest.

Although a few shops still managed to make tuning options for the latest cars and Intakes are still out there and a couple cam places like Delta Cam, but in general its a barren wasteland of tuning...

There isn't any 93 octane in California anymore, but in the UK 91 is their "regular" unleaded petrol and they have up to 95 octane, and Japan I haven't been able to figure out exactly but they do have higher than 93 as their "high" octane fuel.

Basically, most other countries don't offer as low 87 octane and go higher than 91 or 93. But we do have E-85 which is quite high on the scale but comes with... different issues

Like that fact that it can feed baby seals and can cause global cooling? Try me for E85 issues, I know stuff, people, or I can find a solution. Although in Cali you are screwed no matter what. Can't help you with that.

RON is higher than US octane because we factor in MON. We get the same grade fuel, we just use a different grade!

I learned of just some of that Subaru N/A stuff when I went looking for a Subaru N/A engine with only 2.0L. The only options were to use the old EJ18 or importing an engine. The EJ204 is decent for a N/A but it was not popular and therefore rare. The FA20 is shaping up to be what I am looking for in a decent chassis.

[coyote]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Ressearch into N/A stuff was going on (mostly by COBB) until the WRX came out in '01.

I have no interest in drag racing, but here's my engine builder's 1996 WRX.

http://www.youtube.com/user/EBSANE#p/a/u/0/hq0OkQ1KawE

I bought my first one in 1994, so they hardly came out in 2001.

[PuGZoR]

I reckon we'll be able to take this up to 230hp pretty easily with intake, exhaust and aftermarket ECU. Those three will be what's hurting the engine to reduce emissions.

Could always go for a shot of NAWZ too just for the lols.

But seriously, intake (maybe manifold too...), exhaust and ECU will be the limiters, they usually are on modern cars.

[serialk11r]

The one thing that sorta scares me is that for the sake of emissions they seem to have cut back a lot. I wonder if aftermarket exhausts will even comply with the new standards if they're that strict. Will we see exhausts getting more and more restrictive because of this? (this hurts fuel economy to some small degree too!)

Either way I'm not buying a car anytime soon, just along for the ride on the hype roller coaster

[PuGZoR]

Don't know bout those in the USoA but here in sunny Queensland, Australia, exhaust emissions are virtually uncontrolled outside of manufacturer requirements. Occasionally you'll find mobile setup that tests for it but I was a hoon for a couple of years and never came across one. Hell, some guys even run without a cat converter on the roads despite the fact it can lead to a $15,000 fine. Worst you'll get other than that is a defect notice.

[Matador]

People, get this through your head. 12.5 CR is NOT the limiting factor in boosting an engine. I swear to God I am fucking fed up of the constant whinging. Fricking hell man. It's a tuner car. It will be modified, tweaked, and tuned. The only achillies heel MAY be the ECU. We however don't know anything about that yet, so no point is being a damned downer. I wish I could permaban every moron who starts a useless, idiotic thread
**gets off soap box** [/rant]

Originally Posted by fred_boosted

Nice tip!

What about mill the block? Is this safe and not that costly?

A set of after market pistion+rod. But those are just over my budget limit.

I'm considering an used BMW M3 E90/92 now... which is... shame..

Milling the block will raise compression. If you can afford a used M3, then I'm sure you can afford a used cayman. If you like boost so much, why not buy a used 335 coupe and boost to your hearts content?

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Kindly, you are not knowledgeable enough to speak on this subject at all.

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

STI runs forged cranks and rods factory, if anything id expect this car to have a forged crank since its expected to perform in the upper registries of the RPM range.

Most if not all Toyota engines since the late 90s run forged cranks. If we are lucky, we might get rods and pistons too, but don't count out what could be achieved with stock pieces, forged or not.

Originally Posted by KaliKev

You don't have to be a **** about it.

Yes. He did. In fact, he probably should have been a bigger **** about it.

Originally Posted by serialk11r

200hp at 7000 is actually pretty pathetic considering what went into this motor. A better exhaust might be able to give a little more and if you don't mind the slight decrease in fuel economy, bigger cams would do some too. 215hp might be realistic considering how the torque is a relatively impressive compared to torque peak 148ft-lb at 7000.

And I am still betting a few years down the road there will be an engine update. I'm not getting a car anytime soon, still in college, but if I'm right I probably will go for said updated FT, well if nothing better comes out.

I'm betting that this engine is purposely choked from the factory. The GR and UR engines pick up anywhere from 20-30hp with basic bolt-ons. Granted, this doesn't have their displacement, but I'm sure 220hp is within the realm of possibility without that much effort.

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Nobody has done 300hp, lots of people have talked about it and nobody has been anywhere close.

Talking and actually trying are two different things.

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

290PS, still very respectable for a N/A EJ20. And plenty past what the other guys are talking about. It is possible with the displacement. Honda K20 guys do it, and Mazda MZR 2.0L have done 300HP. And this engine starts at 200PS @ 7000RPM, stock.

Stock engines are usually heavily choked. It doesn't matter that it is the highest N/A output, they have to meet strict emissions and there is always room for improvement. The question remains how much. But I am optimistic that there is room just in a 93 octane tune.

This.

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

That is nutty. I still believe the reason there are no high HP boxers is because of the emphasis on turbo models not a design constraint. Honda has high HP N/A 2.0L and so does Matsuda with their MZR in the Miata. So it's not a displacement issue.

And definitely this. It is a lack of development simply, no design constraint whatsoever. In fact, boxer engines ought to rev higher and harder than your run of the mill inline 4.

Originally Posted by PuGZoR

I reckon we'll be able to take this up to 230hp pretty easily with intake, exhaust and aftermarket ECU. Those three will be what's hurting the engine to reduce emissions.

Could always go for a shot of NAWZ too just for the lols.

But seriously, intake (maybe manifold too...), exhaust and ECU will be the limiters, they usually are on modern cars.

I'm not even sure you'd need an ecu to achieve this. Certainly would be helpful though.

[Buggy51]

Well, considering that CA is one of the largest automobile markets in the US, it would be odd not to do anything if it requires 93.

[verlumpt]

Originally Posted by 70NYD

diesels are what 17:1? MOST of them are boosted LOL
with petrol, and 12.5:1 you will get low boost but LOTS of power. energy is extracted MORE at a higher comp ratio, so a 10:1 running 10PSI will get more power than a 8:1 running 10PSI

Yes, but if it were 8:1 you could run over 20 PSi and make more power in the end. Power delivery and power band would be completely different, but the numbers for low comp + high boost will almost always be higher than high comp + low boost.

Just be patient for those 'needing' boost. I'd bet you will see a turbo variation from Subaru in this chassis... or just plan on replacing bottom end components to get a more reasonable 9:1 or less CR

[Do Boy]

Well if the weight is close enough to 2500lbs like they have stated in another thread. I will prolly attempt to build this car all motor. If it's in the upper 2700-2800 I will prolly have the shop I go to fab up a custom Turbo setup.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by Buggy51

Well, considering that CA is one of the largest automobile markets in the US, it would be odd not to do anything if it requires 93.

Cali heavily regulates performance upgrades and they have 91 instead of 93 octane. It's hard to design a tuner friendly car for a market where anything aftermarket is heavily regulated or illegal.

Originally Posted by verlumpt

Yes, but if it were 8:1 you could run over 20 PSi and make more power in the end. Power delivery and power band would be completely different, but the numbers for low comp + high boost will almost always be higher than high comp + low boost.

Just be patient for those 'needing' boost. I'd bet you will see a turbo variation from Subaru in this chassis... or just plan on replacing bottom end components to get a more reasonable 9:1 or less CR

DI is a boon either way, the Mazda Speed3 has 10.25:1 Compression ratio and runs 15lbs. But yes, less compression will help with running more boost on low octane pump gas. It's not always a concern of engine durability as much as fuel octane. Eg. Honda Guys have run 20lbs+ on a F20C with Racefuel/E85. Detonation is a huge factor in turbo builds. Most cars are designed to be strong enough to handle detonation long enough to retard timing and that is it.

N/A the stock engine is going to rock if it sees enough development. Low boost it will work. But if you want an all out turbo you will want to swap to a WRX/STI turbo engine.

Originally Posted by Do Boy

Well if the weight is close enough to 2500lbs like they have stated in another thread. I will prolly attempt to build this car all motor. If it's in the upper 2700-2800 I will prolly have the shop I go to fab up a custom Turbo setup.

2700 is with a full tank vs the quoted figures. So right in the middle.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by verlumpt

Yes, but if it were 8:1 you could run over 20 PSi and make more power in the end. Power delivery and power band would be completely different, but the numbers for low comp + high boost will almost always be higher than high comp + low boost.

Just be patient for those 'needing' boost. I'd bet you will see a turbo variation from Subaru in this chassis... or just plan on replacing bottom end components to get a more reasonable 9:1 or less CR

Depends.. what do you call "low" boost? high compression + boost makes more power and a better all round drive.... If you know how to tune.

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

DI is a boon either way, the Mazda Speed3 has 10.25:1 Compression ratio and runs 15lbs. But yes, less compression will help with running more boost on low octane pump gas. It's not always a concern of engine durability as much as fuel octane. Eg. Honda Guys have run 20lbs+ on a F20C with Racefuel/E85. Detonation is a huge factor in turbo builds. Most cars are designed to be strong enough to handle detonation long enough to retard timing and that is it.

N/A the stock engine is going to rock if it sees enough development. Low boost it will work. But if you want an all out turbo you will want to swap to a WRX/STI turbo engine.

Exactly. I hope the engine can go the K20 route and see a ton of development.