Got a few (<- keyword) newish details from a Toyo Dealer

[Ryephile]

It's just a little logical deduction through remembering history. No relatively inexpensive 2-seat sports car has ever sold huge numbers. 350Z/370Z's, MINI's, BMW Z3, Z4, Miata, Celica, MR2, S2000, Supra, Rx7, Rx8, Corvette, blah blah blah. None of them have big production numbers; the higher production numbers being 30k-ish per year. This is low production in the big picture for a huge manufacturer like Toyota.

If you can name a cheap sport coupe that sell >100k/year, then we start getting into good economies of scale. Toyota is banking on a big pent-up demand for cheap sport coupes to give solid sales for at least half a production cycle to pay for the tooling while providing Scion with a good halo/image car.

Originally Posted by VenomRush

this is toyota/scion we're talking about here

Ughk, seriously, you aren't even trying to understand the auto industry now. Ignore facts. Ignore history. Ignore the obvious. But please, don't be surprised when I get to blast in all caps "I told you so!" when the price is announced and it's very close to what most of us are saying. $25k

[VenomRush]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

It's just a little logical deduction through remembering history. No relatively inexpensive 2-seat sports car has ever sold huge numbers. 350Z/370Z's, MINI's, BMW Z3, Z4, Miata, Celica, MR2, S2000, Supra, Rx7, Rx8, Corvette, blah blah blah. None of them have big production numbers; the higher production numbers being 30k-ish per year. This is low production in the big picture for a huge manufacturer like Toyota.

If you can name a cheap sport coupe that sell >100k/year, then we start getting into good economies of scale. Toyota is banking on a big pent-up demand for cheap sport coupes to give solid sales for at least half a production cycle to pay for the tooling while providing Scion with a good halo/image car.



Ughk, seriously, you aren't even trying to understand the auto industry now. Ignore facts. Ignore history. Ignore the obvious. But please, don't be surprised when I get to blast in all caps "I told you so!" when the price is announced and it's very close to what most of us are saying. $25k

ignore history? bro did you see what you did up there^^?

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

It's just a little logical deduction through remembering history. No relatively inexpensive 2-seat sports car has ever sold huge numbers. 350Z/370Z's, MINI's, BMW Z3, Z4, Miata, Celica, MR2, S2000, Supra, Rx7, Rx8, Corvette, blah blah blah. None of them have big production numbers; the higher production numbers being 30k-ish per year. This is low production in the big picture for a huge manufacturer like Toyota.

If you can name a cheap sport coupe that sell >100k/year, then we start getting into good economies of scale. Toyota is banking on a big pent-up demand for cheap sport coupes to give solid sales for at least half a production cycle to pay for the tooling while providing Scion with a good halo/image car.

I guess it depends on how you define "low production"? Like 5-10k per year? You talking world wide or just NA?

350z, Z3, Z4, S2000, Supra, RX7, RX8, Corvette aren't even in the same class or price range, but I get your point. The FT-86 is never going to be a Corolla/Camry/Accord/Civic. That isn't its point and I wouldn't want it to either. However that doesn't mean that can't price it competitively at $23-25k (depending on options/features).

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by VenomRush

ignore history? bro did you see what you did up there^^?

LOL bro? Do you even have a rational point?

Originally Posted by tranzformer

However that doesn't mean that can't price it competitively at $23-25k (depending on options/features).

It's very tough to make a cheap car and low production. Tooling costs are hundreds of millions. No doubt the only way the FR-S is coming to market is due to the collaboration with Subaru making a sister car and sharing powertrain development. Toyota can shoot for a firm price point, but if it's too low they will end up forcing themselves to make a very stripped out and underdeveloped car. I don't think anyone here wants a rear drive Yaris with 140 HP [no offense to Yaris owners, but let's be honest here].

[VenomRush]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

LOL bro? Do you even have a rational point?

allow me to make an attempt...how are you gonna say to look at past cars to make a point about this car, then on the same post say to ignore history to make the same point

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

It's very tough to make a cheap car and low production. Tooling costs are hundreds of millions. No doubt the only way the FR-S is coming to market is due to the collaboration with Subaru making a sister car and sharing powertrain development. Toyota can shoot for a firm price point, but if it's too low they will end up forcing themselves to make a very stripped out and underdeveloped car. I don't think anyone here wants a rear drive Yaris with 140 HP [no offense to Yaris owners, but let's be honest here].

True. But part of the cost of the car will depend on how they decide to spec it. LSD standard? Brembo brakes standard? Recaro seats standard?...etc. Start having less standard features and they could have a cheaper entry level with different packages for those who want the LSD, larger brakes, Recaro seats...etc.

There are a few people on here that have mentioned they would rather have 140hp engine since they plan on doing an engine swap or putting a turbo on it .

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by VenomRush

allow me to make an attempt...how are you gonna say to look at past cars to make a point about this car, then on the same post say to ignore history to make the same point

Give it another read, out loud if necessary. I was imploring you to ignore history, facts, and the obvious, but don't dare be surprised when the price is $25k. Perhaps I was writing too poetically, but nevertheless it was coherent. You aren't paying attention and I'm calling you out on it.

Now, back on topic. Would it be nice if the car was less expensive without sacrificing features or quality? Sure it would! Back to reality however, there will have to be sacrifices if you want a cheap car.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

I don't think anyone here wants a rear drive Yaris with 140 HP [no offense to Yaris owners, but let's be honest here].

Here are a few btw:

Originally Posted by Dimman

Um, what? CRX Si was like 106 hp.

148 hp at 2420 lbs gives me 16.35 lbs/hp. And a 7.1-7.3 0-60 mph estimate.

I'm not advocating that the car ONLY have a stock FB, I'm saying make a cheaper, stripped volume version. Like I said $19k. Do it, Scion/Toyota.

I can add power to a motor. It's tough to strip weight in a nice and comfortable manner.

Originally Posted by Dimman

I'd take 148 bhp at 2420 lbs. Dead serious.

Make me a $19k version with a stock FB20, Toyota. Make it a stripper (options, not dancer) and keep it light.

140hp for $25k, no that wouldn't sell. But as Dimman mentioned 140hp for under $20k would be very very tempting.

[Ryephile]

That is an interesting idea!

I wonder how many units they'd sell with an FR-S spec'd out with a stock 140-ish HP FB20 and minimal equipment at $19k versus a higher-trim level FR-S with a 200-ish HP FB20-mod and decent equipment at $25k.


The irony of 140HP for $25k, however, is that basically matches my Golf TDI. Of course it has much more torque and fuel economy and utility and a fantastic interior to balance the lack of top-end power.

[tranzformer]

I would strongly consider a $19k FT-86 with 140hp if it weighed ~2400lbs. Would have to balance that with a potential 200hp model and whether I thought the $$ difference was worth it for what it came with.

[VenomRush]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Give it another read, out loud if necessary. I was imploring you to ignore history, facts, and the obvious, but don't dare be surprised when the price is $25k. Perhaps I was writing too poetically, but nevertheless it was coherent. You aren't paying attention and I'm calling you out on it.

Now, back on topic. Would it be nice if the car was less expensive without sacrificing features or quality? Sure it would! Back to reality however, there will have to be sacrifices if you want a cheap car.

you seem to have forgotten about the fully loaded mazda6 my uncle bought for just over 26k.

[xantonin]

The only reason I can see anyone considering the 140 HP model is because the car is still RWD.

Take that away and you have just another Celica GT.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

True. But part of the cost of the car will depend on how they decide to spec it. LSD standard? Brembo brakes standard? Recaro seats standard?...etc. Start having less standard features and they could have a cheaper entry level with different packages for those who want the LSD, larger brakes, Recaro seats...etc.

There are a few people on here that have mentioned they would rather have 140hp engine since they plan on doing an engine swap or putting a turbo on it .

But having someone else design, tool, and make parts for it can make it cheaper for Toyota than having to design/make their own parts.

Sure you hear Brembo and Recaro you think high quality, but they sell it to OEM's for dirt cheap. Gives them a lot of stability. Plus they already have all the tooling, etc. I would assume it would take Brembo less time to design a brake system than Toyota. Simply because that's all they do.

Sometimes you pay for the name though.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Here are a few btw:







140hp for $25k, no that wouldn't sell. But as Dimman mentioned 140hp for under $20k would be very very tempting.

BUT... The key for me to honour that statement is the WEIGHT. 148 hp, 2420lbs and $19k. Fuck yeah!

Handle like a dream, look like sex, good mileage. Then when bored in a few years (paid off), swap time! Maybe a 240 hp EZ30 H6 if it doesn't throw off the balance too much...