For the time attack guys, Traction Control on or off?

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

Anybody who has a trophy at an SCCA National Event?

Yup. Any questions?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

Anybody who has a trophy at an SCCA National Event?

Several, but I think they wish to remain anonymous.

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

The lack of skid marks on corner entry tell me that the proportioning brake controller works. VSA is off I lay big patches late braking. Somebody is not smooth enough with their inputs if they are getting injector cut. my point all along is if you drove like a pro the ecu wouldn't have a reason to interrupt. Those Hot Version drivers are just having fun with this sporty car. Please adjust your driving style if you cant be fast unless they are off.
Anybody who has a trophy at an SCCA National Event?

First off, most of the time the VSC/TC on these cars is only actuating the brakes, it very rarely cuts engine output (I don't think I have ever had it cut power on me, just actuate the brakes).

Second, your laying skid marks with VSC/TC off speaks to your threshold braking skills, not what is the fastest way around the track in one of these cars (I'm assuming you don't think you are the fastest person in the world in one of these cars).

Third, the VSC will cut in under steady state cornering conditions if there is a filled crack in the track surface. It doesn't matter how good/smooth you are, this is a fact of the nature of the VSC/TC unit in these cars, not the driver.

Fourth, I can be almost as fast with VSC on or off, the difference is that the VSC doesn't permit certain techniques which I can use to improve my time in certain specific corners (it just gets unhappy with that level of slip angle+gforce, though I think there is a sealed crack there that also messes with it).

Fifth: Turning off VSC/TC also permits me to make choices to save the car that I may not be able to make with it on; too many cooks in the kitchen can just make a bigger mess.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

the e-lsd will try to "fix" inside rear wheel spin, and instead make the car try to kill you.

I have personally witnessed this in the snow with nannies supposedly "off".(I am sure you have read my account)

[PowderfaceTr.]

Originally Posted by renfield90

Yup. Any questions?

Tire questions,
How many laps do you find you get before your comps go hard? Do you find that the Pedal dance shorten the life of your slicks?

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

Tire questions,
How many laps do you find you get before your comps go hard? Do you find that the Pedal dance shorten the life of your slicks?

Generally, the lifespan is counted in heat cycles, not laps. Unless use of the pedal dance changes your driving style enough to affect heat input to your tires (which it frankly shouldn't), the lifespan of your tires won't be affected.

[raul]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

The lack of skid marks on corner entry tell me that the proportioning brake controller works. VSA is off I lay big patches late braking. Somebody is not smooth enough with their inputs if they are getting injector cut. my point all along is if you drove like a pro the ecu wouldn't have a reason to interrupt. Those Hot Version drivers are just having fun with this sporty car. Please adjust your driving style if you cant be fast unless they are off.
Anybody who has a trophy at an SCCA National Event?

To put it simply: you're wrong. Tires need some slip to achieve optimum grip. The nannies intervene before that point, so therefore, you cannot achieve maximum grip with them on. Either you're a massive troll or you haven't driven on track.

Also, a national trophy is indicative of nothing lacking reference. You can walk away with a trophy by simply running a class that doesn't have fully prepped cars or great drivers. For that trophy to matter, you have to reference what event, class and who your competition was.

[killboy]

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

Completely off and pedal dance are 2 different things.

We run it "completely off" (Hold both buttons for 5 seconds) but some folks feel they need to run it in the pedal-dance mode.

-mike

You only have to hold the left button for 5 seconds, FYI.

[justint5387]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

Tire questions,
How many laps do you find you get before your comps go hard? Do you find that the Pedal dance shorten the life of your slicks?

I trophied and stayed at the holiday inn express.

The answer depends on what tires you are running.

[zdr93523]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

I would NEVER want a beginner to go out without traction control enabled.

So you would have never taken anyone on a track prior to the implementation of traction control in modern cars? Ayrton Senna is rolling over in his grave.

Pedal dance is the only way to go.

As far as the beginner TC philosophy...
My wife started from Day 1 with the pedal dance for 3 reasons:
1. With proper instruction and some common sense, a new driver will not over drive the car or their skills.

2. The benefits of learning how to actually control a car without intervention far outweighs the risk of a relatively slower speed incident in a controlled environment. If a driver is unable or unfamiliar with recovering a vehicle from a drift or slide at lower speeds, they're going to be in real trouble once they do get fast and decide to disable the nannies. Remember, loose is fast.

3. The adverse affects of the VSC Sport mode, or 5 sec off are much worse than the dance, such as the tendency for the E-diff to lock a wheel and spin the car when coming off of curbing at high speed. i.e... it tries to kill you, and not in the good Jeremy Clarkson C63 AMG kind of way.

A properly set up 86 has MUCH more grip than the OEM traction program was designed to deal with. I get traction control intervention during smooth left-right weight transfers on curvy off ramps driving at 4/10ths in VSC Sport mode... so much intervention that it can be downright scary and we have completely stopped using that mode.

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by zdr93523

So you would have never taken anyone on a track prior to the implementation of traction control in modern cars? Ayrton Senna is rolling over in his grave.

Pedal dance is the only way to go.

As far as the beginner TC philosophy...
My wife started from Day 1 with the pedal dance for 3 reasons:
1. With proper instruction and some common sense, a new driver will not over drive the car or their skills.

2. The benefits of learning how to actually control a car without intervention far outweighs the risk of a relatively slower speed incident in a controlled environment. If a driver is unable or unfamiliar with recovering a vehicle from a drift or slide at lower speeds, they're going to be in real trouble once they do get fast and decide to disable the nannies. Remember, loose is fast.

3. The adverse affects of the VSC Sport mode, or 5 sec off are much worse than the dance, such as the tendency for the E-diff to lock a wheel and spin the car when coming off of curbing at high speed. i.e... it tries to kill you, and not in the good Jeremy Clarkson C63 AMG kind of way.

A properly set up 86 has MUCH more grip than the OEM traction program was designed to deal with. I get traction control intervention during smooth left-right weight transfers on curvy off ramps driving at 4/10ths in VSC Sport mode... so much intervention that it can be downright scary and we have completely stopped using that mode.

Yeah, I was being a bit over the top with that. At the same time, I am a firm believer in traction control as a safety net for beginners if at all possible. The argument about how to start out has been well fleshed out before so I won't try to rehash it. I think we both know what the conversation would entail/we could probably both do both sides of the debate

[Doozer]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

Tire questions,
How many laps do you find you get before your comps go hard? Do you find that the Pedal dance shorten the life of your slicks?

I find tire wear is the same VSC on or off. However pad life is increased with VSC off due to the brakes kicking in.

I'm always one to try and learn a faster way to drive, so would you mind posting a video of you doing a lap both with and without VSC?

I feel I'm quicker in the 86 with everything turned off (and so do my lap times), but I'm happy to be proven wrong if it means going faster.

We turn off for time attacks, GP sprint races and enduro's.

[PowderfaceTr.]

You realize Its ice race season.
Ill check the archives of ancient BRZ videos.

I bought this car for its traction control. Driving the line I would in a 700lbs ground effects car or any car other than a shifter kart. I net the no traction control interruptions. A spec miata is multiple second slower than a VSA on BRZ.

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

You realize Its ice race season.
Ill check the archives of ancient BRZ videos.

I bought this car for its traction control. Driving the line I would in a 700lbs ground effects car or any car other than a shifter kart. I net the no traction control interruptions. A spec miata is multiple second slower than a VSA on BRZ.

Given the variations within spec Miata and the strengths and weaknesses of such different platforms, a blanket statement that a stock BRZ/FRS is always faster than a spec Miata (or the other way around) is provably wrong. There are places that a spec Miata will easily spank a stock BRZ/FRS. There are also places where a stock BRZ/FRS will annihilate a spec Miata.

Also, seriously, you bought one of THESE cars for its traction control? If you were going to buy a car for excellent traction control you should have looked at some of the others out there. There are alot of cars with much more fine tuned / track oriented VSC/TC systems out of the box. Frankly, the BRZ/FRS has kind of ham fisted traction control (at least compared to other modern cars).

Additionally, one of the most important skills a driver is the ability to adapt to the strengths and weaknesses of their vehicle. The fastest line in a aero vs. non aero car really should be different. Even within your general street car type vehicles, variations in setup can change traction properties in ways that will vary your line some. For example, a car with soft sway bars might eat an inside curb in a corner while one with crazy stiff sway bars would end up hopping its traction wheels if the same thing is done. Always driving an identical line between cars means you are, by necessity, leaving time on the table.