Open letter to Toyota and Subaru

[imag]

Thanks to all for the great responses. I was expecting a stream of hate.

I listed the MSM as a failure because it was introduced very late in the NB run, and it had very low sales as a result.

And I want to be clear that I was *not* saying they shouldn't have offered the current version, or that there was anything wrong with the current version. I was saying that at low cost (2.5L motor, better brakes, better suspension, better wheels and tires), they could have offered another, higher spec version for those of us willing to pay more.

I recently tallied up the cost of aftermarket upgrades I would want, and I came close to the $20K listed above for:

- Brakes
- S/C
- Coilovers
- Wheels
- Tires
- Chassis bracing

This is stuff that the OEM could do for much less, because they have the benefit of volume, and are swapping parts rather than buying a full car, then buying new parts.

I would much rather pay $38K-$40K for an upgraded model than spend $25K for an FRS and spending almost $20K in parts for it. I end up with a car I spend $45K on that is still worth less than $30K. That is a bummer. I don't think I am the only one in this situation. A high spec FRS/BRZ would still be much less than a Cayman, and it has back seats. Sure - it still wouldn't beat a Mustang in a straight line, but I agree that that is not the point.

My other point was that they lose on the marketing side with this approach. If in year 2, they had come out with a high-spec model, they would have gotten a whole new round of frenzied press, comparison tests, and articles, all of which would drive more sales for *both* the high spec and the lower spec car. If the point of the car is to provide good press for Toyota/Subaru, then this strategy would only help their goal. Now that the platform is built, swapping out things like brakes just doesn't require that much R&D.

Anyway, I appreciate all the comments and thoughts.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by stonenewt

The cat-in-mani design seems to be a quick short cut to a torque dip. When I was looking at tuning an exhaust when you tried to get the cat close to the exhaust ports as possible there comes a point when you end up with a definite dip developing in the rev band somewhere. It's not like you're shifting it into a operating range, it's that as the cat moves closer to the exhaust ports this dip deepens.

There are emission reasons to put the cat close to the exhaust ports, however it does have an impact on the torque curve. But effectively you're badly tuning the exhaust for performance to gain lower emission levels.

The cat in manifold may exacerbate the problem, but it doesn't cause it. Catless manifolds also show the dip. The UEL manifolds seem to cut it down, but probably more from having different flow at different rpms in different cylinders, and from disrupting exhaust flow enough to change the harmonics of the air flow. A variable length intake could probably eliminate it, as could an intake tunes for only higher revs. Even the gorgeous Ptuning intake doesn't eliminate the dip. Far from it. Many of the FI systems also don't eliminate the dip, or have a softening of power at the dips rpm range.

[imag]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

So where in the letter does it specify exactly what you are looking for? It is of course implied but if I received this my response would be just as vague. Don't disagree that there should be an option with more power but if they had put it out with just a 300 horse power plant there would be a whole crowd going "too much when are you going to turn it down for us?" They spent millions on looking at what the market was lacking and this car is what they came up with. This is the very definition of a "niche" vehicle and as such it is not so much a profit maker as a brand identity benefit for the company so for the limited market it has a dozen different versions make no sense at all. I have little doubt that once it makes business sense they will offer up more options and then you will say " my letter made them do that".
I am sure there are many owners that are more then satisfied with the car as it is and as you pointed out there are loads of options for those who are not.

And do you even own one? Even though old Datsuns can be cool if that is your priority on your profile then you may be in the wrong forum.

My whole post was about offering options, not about offering a single version with higher horsepower. I think 250-300 hp would be reasonable. I don't own one because I drove it and felt that the chassis and seating position were fantastic, but that the car deserved a variant with 250 horsepower or so, along with brakes that can handle that horsepower on track. I looked at what it would cost to get the car to where I wanted using aftermarket parts (see above), and it was nearly the cost of the vehicle.

I am not sure why I would have posted all this if I had already bought one. I am explaining why I haven't taken the plunge. The platform of the car is great, but the ancillaries - brakes, engine, etc., aren't where I want them to be. It's the same reason someone might want a V8 Mustang with performance package but not be interested in a base model six cylinder. It is not that one car or the other is bad; it is about what buyers prioritize and can afford.

Regarding the Datsun - if I already own that car, why would it be my priority to get another one like it? I am not planning to sell it. My wife and I also have a 500e and a RAV4, but neither of those cars have anything to do with what I would want in the FRS/BRZ. The FRS/BRZ would actually be replacing the RAV, if you want to know the whole story.

Regardless, this is not about me. The one-size-fits-all model is consistently shown to be a sales failure in the last 15-20 years. I think Toyota should be more progressive.

[jvincent]

Originally Posted by imag

I recently tallied up the cost of aftermarket upgrades I would want, and I came close to the $20K listed above for:

- Brakes
- S/C
- Coilovers
- Wheels
- Tires
- Chassis bracing

This is stuff that the OEM could do for much less, because they have the benefit of volume, and are swapping parts rather than buying a full car, then buying new parts.

I'm not sure how your list comes up to $20K, but my thoughts as follows.

-Brakes. From a stopping perspective, the current brakes are fine. They suffer from fade on the track because of fluid and non-race pads. A BBK is really only needed to reduce the cost of consumables, i.e. pads/rotors, not for stopping power. Pads/fluid/lines is only a few hundred bucks.

- S/C. This is probably the biggest item.

- Coilovers. A factory performance suspension would likely just be lowering springs and different shocks. Unlikely to be adjustable.

- Wheels/tires. Lots of ways to spend money in the aftermarket here. Coming from the factory they would likely not be the equivalent of a high-end aftermarket option so depending on what you chose here, it could skew your numbers. I'm looking at you TWS forged rims!

- Chassis bracing. You don't say what specifically you were adding. The aftermarket stuff here is typically very inflated because of the bling factor. You can go overboard here without really influencing the performance.

[stonenewt]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

The cat in manifold may exacerbate the problem, but it doesn't cause it. Catless manifolds also show the dip. The UEL manifolds seem to cut it down, but probably more from having different flow at different rpms in different cylinders, and from disrupting exhaust flow enough to change the harmonics of the air flow. A variable length intake could probably eliminate it, as could an intake tunes for only higher revs. Even the gorgeous Ptuning intake doesn't eliminate the dip. Far from it. Many of the FI systems also don't eliminate the dip, or have a softening of power at the dips rpm range.

You can easily tune out a dip in an exhaust manifold, EL or UEL but most of the time you'll not increase the area under the torque curve, you'll be robbing torque from elsewhere in the rev-range. However if you design an exhaust system with no torque dip but move a cat too close to the exhaust ports you'll create a dip not by moving the torque to another area of the torque curve but by reducing the area under the torque graph. When I had a quick look at exhaust manifolds what data I could get on otherwise unmodified engines revealed that all of them have more-or-less the same total area under the torque curve, dip or no dip. It's just the torque was distributed differently across the rev range.

[imag]

Originally Posted by jvincent

I'm not sure how your list comes up to $20K, but my thoughts as follows.

-Brakes. From a stopping perspective, the current brakes are fine. They suffer from fade on the track because of fluid and non-race pads. A BBK is really only needed to reduce the cost of consumables, i.e. pads/rotors, not for stopping power. Pads/fluid/lines is only a few hundred bucks.

- S/C. This is probably the biggest item.

- Coilovers. A factory performance suspension would likely just be lowering springs and different shocks. Unlikely to be adjustable.

- Wheels/tires. Lots of ways to spend money in the aftermarket here. Coming from the factory they would likely not be the equivalent of a high-end aftermarket option so depending on what you chose here, it could skew your numbers. I'm looking at you TWS forged rims!

- Chassis bracing. You don't say what specifically you were adding. The aftermarket stuff here is typically very inflated because of the bling factor. You can go overboard here without really influencing the performance.

Quibble about pricing, but the point remains: the aftermarket is not always the best solution to lack of car options, for all the reasons expressed above.

If Porsche made one 911 or Ford made one Mustang and they told their customers to simply mod their cars if they wanted anything different, their sales and profits would fall.

[Rampage]

@imaq I agree with some of what you say and understand that you "wish" Toyota would offer a high performance version of the car/ However, I disagree with your core argument that one trim models doom the car to failure. The Miata was a resounding success (the Miata Mazdaspeed was a marketing failure). The twins are already a success even without a high HP variant. Just like the recently announced 2016 Mx-5 Toyota has chosen to keep it simple and true to its roots. There will be other cars in the line-up to satisfy those that desire high HP and straight line speed (like the Supra, RC-F and V6 Camry ).

[jvincent]

Originally Posted by imag

Quibble about pricing, but the point remains: the aftermarket is not always the best solution to lack of car options, for all the reasons expressed above.

If Porsche made one 911 or Ford made one Mustang and they told their customers to simply mod their cars if they wanted anything different, their sales and profits would fall.

Other than a different engine option, almost all of the other upgrades would be the kind of thing that people would want to do differently than the manufacturer offers.

So, unless you are like Ford and know you are going to sell a shit ton of Mustangs at every trim level the economies of scale become less interesting. Porsche doesn't care about economies of scale because they are gouging every buyer for options anyway.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by imag

Quibble about pricing, but the point remains: the aftermarket is not always the best solution to lack of car options, for all the reasons expressed above.

If Porsche made one 911 or Ford made one Mustang and they told their customers to simply mod their cars if they wanted anything different, their sales and profits would fall.

you are also a little off point as the cost of aftermarket doesnt require the magnitude of research and reliability since they arent going to have to warranty your car.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Hey I fall into that age group and have no issues getting in and out!...

Same here! I joke getting in and out is all part of my fitness plan. I honestly don't find it that hard to get in or out of and I'm not exactly the model of perfect 50+ shape.

I grew up smack dab in the middle of the classic muscle car era. By the time I was in high school, late '60s muscle cars were in that 7 to 8 year old period, and the used car market was flooded with them. Half the guys, and probably 25% of the ladies, drove what would now be a $100,000+ car if we hadn't had a propensity to run them into ditches and trees trying to power them around curves on sandy back roads in NC.

Fast forward to 2012, I did cross-shop the FR-S with a couple of modern muscle-cars. For me, I loved the 86 enough I couldn't justify the difference in cost between it and the Camaro (my mullet wearing soul wouldn't let me drive a base Camaro) I would have loved, so I got the 86.

I knew what I was getting going in and I couldn't be happier with what I got as a result.

[Davev]

My letter to Toyota (and a cc to Subaru)

Thanks for making this car. Going out on a limb to produce something for enthusiasts is appreciated. Drivers like me who don't feel like putting part of their nest egg into a depreciating asset love what you did. This car is almost perfect for sunny weekend drives. It doesn't have to be the fastest car on the road. It doesn't have to haul people or stuff. It doesn't have to be driven if there is rain in the forecast. It's purely for enjoyment. And it delivers.

I'm betting that it will be reliable and last many years just like other cars you make. Like my 80s Toyota truck that went 400k miles before I sold it. And my 1986 4x4 that went 260k miles before it was stolen. And my 2012 Tacoma that should do the same.

And many years down the road- it may be a sought after car- for all the right reasons. I would like to think I would have ponied up for a Porsche 550 back in the day because they were built for the love of driving, the way the 86 is too. So I bought one.

Regards,
Happy 86 owner

[Quentin]

I'd rather see a lighter weight version. The recent Mustang reveal didn't have me jealous at all. The recent Miata reveal with that 2300 lb curb weight did. (I'd have still selected the 2+2 FRS because I enjoy the car with my daughter, though.)

[lantsalot]

TL;DR

Toyota,

Why you no make a mustang/camaro?!

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by lantsalot

TL;DR

Toyota,

Why you no make a mustang/camaro?!

Your avatar is perfect for that comment. (Viewing on tapatalk). LOL