Open letter to Toyota and Subaru

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by thill

When you talk about cars like the Mustang and Camaro you have to consider the average age of a Mustang buyer. It is in the 50 year old range. And the trend car manufacturers are seeing is that the largest demographic of all new car buyers is the 45-65 year old range and getting worse.

Sorry but the FT86 is not really a good car for that demographic. It is low to the ground (hard to get in and out of), does not have a powerful engine compared to a Camaro, Charger, or Mustang, and lacks amenities.

I love the car, but it will never appeal to most new Amercian car buyers.

The second thing one needs to consider is the yen to dollar. Remember when the FT86 was released the conversion rate was horrible for the yen and it most likely forced Subaru and Toyota to raise the price of the car and make less on each sale. The yen to dollar has improved for the Japanese, and I agree that they should consider a more powerful option, but it might not happen unless Toyota commits..

Hey I fall into that age group and have no issues getting in and out!
The reason the "muscle cars" are popular with my age group is that many of us had one (or more) when we were young OR wanted one when they were new but could not afford them then but can now. I know many guys that have bought new performance versions of mustangs, camaros, challengers and even vettes that have never pushed their car over about half throttle because it is their baby! If they had been able to get one back then they would have driven the crap out of it.


While I was doing the research prior to buying my FRS I found that there really are 3 target groups for our cars:
The first is the obvious 20 to 30 year old that just wants a cool inexpensive car as a DD and will probably upgrade to something more upscale when they can afford it. They may focus more on appearance and cosmetic mods then real performance.
The next are the 20 to whatever aged guys that wanted a good base for mods and plan to race or track as the car's main purpose. This is of course, the group that is the most represented on this forum. I know there is at least one guy here that said he was 71 years old and had some pretty heavy duty race type mods done.
The last and mostly inconspicuous group are the very age group you mentioned. We are commonly known as "empty nesters" and have enough disposable cash for a fun car that we can lightly mod and just enjoy without big upkeep costs. There are actually way more of us you would ever guess. When talking with the Subaru dealer they flat out told me that the slight differences in the BRZ were actually meant to target this group.


I have been told or seen other "old guys" been told on here "oh your ideas are out of date" or "you don't get the new technology". Well we have not been in a cave all this time so many of us have owned the cars that lead up to these and may know way more then you think. I remember when I bought my Talon TSI in 1991 that it was absolutely state of the art , cutting edge technology at the time but it has been far surpassed since then.
So I guess my point is that driving a fun, well handling, fast (enough for daily use or can be made faster if you want too) good looking car is not just a young guy's (or girls although you are few and far between) game and us old timers like to play too.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You drive an Eclipse and think the Twins have noise issues??????
Is it coincidence that most people that post there is not enough power don't list having one in their profile? I think not.

Lol, you guys don't have to get so defensive. All I said is that I wish for a tad more mid range torque to eliminate the annoying torque dip I clearly felt on my test drives.

And I already stated that I don't mind normal wind and road noises but the squeaking/chirping at idle is something that would really annoy me. My eclipse is surprisingly quiet. All I hear is a nice, smooth, exhaust note.

BTW, somebody just left a note on my car offering me $4000 for it. Try twice that amount... And even then I probably wouldn't sell it.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

The '64 did come standard with the straight 6, but the Windsor v8 was an option with either 2 or 4 barrel carbs. Most are 6s but the v8s were available from day one.

Yes which is exactly why I said "most came with the straight 6"
Also explains why an original 64/65 v8 car commands such a huge price now. Although I bet the vast majority of the 6s have been swapped out to 8s by now.
GOD that 6 sucked!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Lol, you guys don't have to get so defensive. All I said is that I wish for a tad more mid range torque to eliminate the annoying torque dip I clearly felt on my test drives.

And I already stated that I don't mind normal wind and road noises but the squeaking/chirping at idle is something that would really annoy me. My eclipse is surprisingly quiet. All I hear is a nice, smooth, exhaust note.

BTW, somebody just left a note on my car offering me $4000 for it. Try twice that amount... And even then I probably wouldn't sell it.

Before the Twins came out the car I wanted the very most was a 2nd gen Eclipse! Drove a 91 Talon TSI (rebadged Eclipse) for few years and loved it!
My point is that it can get pretty annoying when guys come here and say "when I test drove it" or "I read that ..." and think they know the whole story. Contrary to how it appears on here not all have the chirp and even those that do generally don't really hear it after a bit (I KNOW that statement will get me told I am wrong) and unless you are tracking or racing you soon learn to drive around the barely noticeable dip. You can not possibly know this after a few minutes of test driving.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by phobos512

You do realize that the forum is not a random sampling and the people who come on here are either looking for community (enthusiasts) or are looking to solve a problem? There are over 45,000 twins on the road in the US alone as of the June sales thread update. Do you see that many issues? No, not so much.

I didn't mean it is plagued with issues but there is enough to cause me to wait it out a bit. That was my only point.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Yes which is exactly why I said "most came with the straight 6"
Also explains why an original 64/65 v8 car commands such a huge price now. Although I bet the vast majority of the 6s have been swapped out to 8s by now.
GOD that 6 sucked!

You're right, my mistake. My OP said V6 but I typed it out of habit, meant straight 6. Sounds like we're saying the same thing.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Before the Twins came out the car I wanted the very most was a 2nd gen Eclipse! Drove a 91 Talon TSI (rebadged Eclipse) for few years and loved it!
My point is that it can get pretty annoying when guys come here and say "when I test drove it" or "I read that ..." and think they know the whole story. Contrary to how it appears on here not all have the chirp and even those that do generally don't really hear it after a bit (I KNOW that statement will get me told I am wrong) and unless you are tracking or racing you soon learn to drive around the barely noticeable dip. You can not possibly know this after a few minutes of test driving.

I know, that I could probably readjust my shifting points to work around the dip but I'd prefer not to. I love the feeling of a smooth power band. I don't want or need much power; just a tad more than what the FR-S currently offers in the mid-range. And yes, I could very clearly notice it on my three test drives of this car (two new and one used). I'm just hoping for some improvement for next year's model. We'll see. I'll likely get one either way by next spring/summer. But for now, my Eclipse and Evo will do.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

I know, that I could probably readjust my shifting points to work around the dip but I'd prefer not to. I love the feeling of a smooth power band. I don't want or need much power; just a tad more than what the FR-S currently offers in the mid-range. And yes, I could very clearly notice it on my three test drives of this car (two new and one used). I'm just hoping for some improvement for next year's model. We'll see. I'll likely get one either way by next spring/summer. But for now, my Eclipse and Evo will do.

Then you won't like Porsche's either. its seems to be a characteristic of NA boxer engines.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62827

[makesdrivingfunagain]

Thanks to Toyota and Subaru I have a reliable, really aesthetically impressive, reliable, gas efficient, unique and ultra fun daily driver! Great job! If it was much more expensive I wouldn't have purchased it. So much fun to drive and look at. Thanks!! : )

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

Then you won't like Porsche's either. its seems to be a characteristic of NA boxer engines.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62827

You are correct. I do not like those Porsche engines. The dual stage lift makes it particularly bad on them.

[EAGLE5]

Other engines have torque dips, not just flat engines. The is350 engine, for instance. It's about the intake tract. I'm sure it could be redone, but currently we get great low-end power and great high-end power. Shift better.

[stonenewt]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

Other engines have torque dips, not just flat engines. The is350 engine, for instance. It's about the intake tract. I'm sure it could be redone, but currently we get great low-end power and great high-end power. Shift better.

The cat-in-mani design seems to be a quick short cut to a torque dip. When I was looking at tuning an exhaust when you tried to get the cat close to the exhaust ports as possible there comes a point when you end up with a definite dip developing in the rev band somewhere. It's not like you're shifting it into a operating range, it's that as the cat moves closer to the exhaust ports this dip deepens.

There are emission reasons to put the cat close to the exhaust ports, however it does have an impact on the torque curve. But effectively you're badly tuning the exhaust for performance to gain lower emission levels.

[thill]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Hey I fall into that age group and have no issues getting in and out!
The reason the "muscle cars" are popular with my age group is that many of us had one (or more) when we were young OR wanted one when they were new but could not afford them then but can now. I know many guys that have bought new performance versions of mustangs, camaros, challengers and even vettes that have never pushed their car over about half throttle because it is their baby! If they had been able to get one back then they would have driven the crap out of it.


While I was doing the research prior to buying my FRS I found that there really are 3 target groups for our cars:
The first is the obvious 20 to 30 year old that just wants a cool inexpensive car as a DD and will probably upgrade to something more upscale when they can afford it. They may focus more on appearance and cosmetic mods then real performance.
The next are the 20 to whatever aged guys that wanted a good base for mods and plan to race or track as the car's main purpose. This is of course, the group that is the most represented on this forum. I know there is at least one guy here that said he was 71 years old and had some pretty heavy duty race type mods done.
The last and mostly inconspicuous group are the very age group you mentioned. We are commonly known as "empty nesters" and have enough disposable cash for a fun car that we can lightly mod and just enjoy without big upkeep costs. There are actually way more of us you would ever guess. When talking with the Subaru dealer they flat out told me that the slight differences in the BRZ were actually meant to target this group.


I have been told or seen other "old guys" been told on here "oh your ideas are out of date" or "you don't get the new technology". Well we have not been in a cave all this time so many of us have owned the cars that lead up to these and may know way more then you think. I remember when I bought my Talon TSI in 1991 that it was absolutely state of the art , cutting edge technology at the time but it has been far surpassed since then.
So I guess my point is that driving a fun, well handling, fast (enough for daily use or can be made faster if you want too) good looking car is not just a young guy's (or girls although you are few and far between) game and us old timers like to play too.

Well I am not saying nobody in that age group would buy it, but it is a limiting factor. But the fact remains the Mustang/Camaro/Challenger tend to appeal more to the age bracket that has more disposable income.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by thill

Well I am not saying nobody in that age group would buy it, but it is a limiting factor. But the fact remains the Mustang/Camaro/Challenger tend to appeal more to the age bracket that has more disposable income.

I do not know about that. I would say that the expensive, high end, high horsepower pony cars may be as appeal to the group that you describe but the V6s and base V8 models seem to be driven by the younger crowd. I woulod say this is to be expected. The oldsters grew up and learned to drive during the years when the pony cars were every young gearhead's wet dream.

Now that they have raised their family's, established their careers or maybe even retired they can indulge their fantasies and have the car they always dreamed about. And of course, if you can afford it then ou are going to get the badass model to cruise around in. (at a sedate 35 mph) LOL

Some of us, however, have outgrown the whole "horsepower is the answer to driving fun" thing and have opted for lighter and more agile driving machines. That is why you see so many "old" guys in s2000s, Mx-5s, BRZs, FR-Ss and in my case Mr-S.