Rear wheel drive - how big a difference?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

He never mentioned the tires on the car he was passing. I didn't know you were an expert on recognizing tires on moving vehicles in adverse conditions. My apologizes.

You're right, I just get mad when people post up "check out this video of my FRS going faster than a GT3!" so I went off on a bit of a rant, there's so much variation in what you see on the road that I take those stories as entertainment at best.

Who knows, if that jeep wasn't there the Solara guy might've gotten stuck too, might have been an ice patch that he luckily avoided or something.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

Yes, weight over the drive wheels is very important. And given equal tires RWD generally have the least weight over the drive wheels resulting in the least snow traction.

except when accelerating of course, when the weight transfers to the drive wheels.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

He never mentioned the tires on the car he was passing. I didn't know you were an expert on recognizing tires on moving vehicles in adverse conditions. My apologizes.

What I get from that statement is that, given equal tires, a FWD Solara with TC is better in 6-8" of snow/ice than an AWD/4WD Jeep?

Because....no.

[ZionsWrath]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

What I get from that statement is that, given equal tires, a FWD Solara with TC is better in 6-8" of snow/ice than an AWD/4WD Jeep?

Because....no.

A FWD car with TC is better than an ill equipped vehicle and/or driver.

Every time.

Like the guy posted above, he is tired of unfair comparisons. But when people post "this guy in a jeep was spinning and I passed him easily" it is always because of better driver and/or vehicle setup.

It is obvious, all being equal, a 4x4 will outperform a 2 wheel drive vehicle in adverse conditions.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

except when accelerating of course, when the weight transfers to the drive wheels.

Generally, even with good tires, no car can accelerate very quickly on snow or ice. As a result, there isn't much weight transfer to speak of. Since the vast majority of cars are front-heavy, front wheel drive will give more traction in slippery conditions. Also, the more slippery it is, the less weight transfer can occur, shifting the advantage even farther towards FWD vehicles.

[stugray]

The real answer is: The guy in the Jeep did not know how to drive on ice.
He was spinning his tires which gives zero traction and heats the tires so that they slip even more on the ice. Taking it slow and gracefully, the Solara went right around him AFTER coming to a complete stop on the ice while wondering what the hell is wrong with this guy...
And I live in Colorado - Anyone want to guess what kind of cars can be found in the ditch FAR MORE than other cars? -> Four Wheel Drive!
That is because once you put someone in a 4WD SUV, they think they are now immune to the laws of Physics and act even more reckless.
And I have lived in CO all my life and learned to drive in the snow.
I have never ONCE changed to "snow tires" I run all season.
The Solara has Goodyear assurances (best all season tire I have ever had).
I have no idea what the jeep had on it since all four tires were spinning....

[Demandred7]

Too much of anything is a bad thing. Too much understeer is bad. Too much oversteer is bad. Knowing your car's handling characteristics is the most important aspect (ie. Driver knowledge and skill). Knowledge of it's traction, how it transfers weight, its power delivery, etc. Neutral and communicative handling is best to retain control. FWD cars can be set up to moderate their inherent handling characteristics as can RWD cars.

Certainly if someone wants to just hoon around RWD = better. Or as a famous auto journalist has said, "he who shall be last, shall be sideways and smiling".

[thill]

Originally Posted by stugray

The real answer is: The guy in the Jeep did not know how to drive on ice.
He was spinning his tires which gives zero traction and heats the tires so that they slip even more on the ice. Taking it slow and gracefully, the Solara went right around him AFTER coming to a complete stop on the ice while wondering what the hell is wrong with this guy...
And I live in Colorado - Anyone want to guess what kind of cars can be found in the ditch FAR MORE than other cars? -> Four Wheel Drive!
That is because once you put someone in a 4WD SUV, they think they are now immune to the laws of Physics and act even more reckless.
And I have lived in CO all my life and learned to drive in the snow.
I have never ONCE changed to "snow tires" I run all season.
The Solara has Goodyear assurances (best all season tire I have ever had).
I have no idea what the jeep had on it since all four tires were spinning....

Agreed. Some people with SUV's and 4x4 trucks think they are immune to the law of physics when it comes to snow and ice. I see this all the time with people going 70+mph on a 55mph road where everyone else is going 35mph.

I am a huge fan of dedicated snow tires and I have far more confidence in snow with a RWD car with dedicated snow tires than I do a FWD and even an AWD vehicle that has subpar "all season" tires...

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by chrisl

Generally, even with good tires, no car can accelerate very quickly on snow or ice. As a result, there isn't much weight transfer to speak of. Since the vast majority of cars are front-heavy, front wheel drive will give more traction in slippery conditions. Also, the more slippery it is, the less weight transfer can occur, shifting the advantage even farther towards FWD vehicles.

What about going up a hill? There have been several times when I could not get up a hill in my FWD Integra. But since the roads that this happened on were not heavily traveled I turned around at the bottom of the hill and was able to climb up by driving in reverse. Weight transfer to the drive wheels FTW!

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by stugray

And I live in Colorado - Anyone want to guess what kind of cars can be found in the ditch FAR MORE than other cars? -> Four Wheel Drive!
That is because once you put someone in a 4WD SUV, they think they are now immune to the laws of Physics and act even more reckless.
And I have lived in CO all my life and learned to drive in the snow.
I have never ONCE changed to "snow tires" I run all season.
The Solara has Goodyear assurances (best all season tire I have ever had).
I have no idea what the jeep had on it since all four tires were spinning....

That's certainly the truth - 4WD is better, but many people here (I'm also in CO) get in a 4WD vehicle and think they're invulnerable (and end up in a ditch).

As for all season tires? They're OK, but dedicated snow tires make a huge difference. I have a Subaru Outback for winter/practical purposes, and I run Blizzak WS-70 snow tires, and it's darn near unstoppable in the winter (though careful driving is always a good idea on slick roads). I've never had a problem making it up an icy hill or anything like that.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

What about going up a hill? There have been several times when I could not get up a hill in my FWD Integra. But since the roads that this happened on were not heavily traveled I turned around at the bottom of the hill and was able to climb up by driving in reverse. Weight transfer to the drive wheels FTW!

LOL. I actually tried that once in a fwd RSX. Did not work.

But yeah, hills are one area where AWD can make a huge difference. There's a hill near my parents' neighborhood that's fairly steep and very slippery when covered with snow. Their AWD SUV (w/ locking center differential, limited slip rear differential) can make that hill on all-seasons, whereas FWD cars even on snow tires don't have a chance.

[drewbot]

This will be my first winter in RWD.

Previously driven FWD (Civic) and FWD w/4WD activated (CR-V).

So long as you check you ego at the door during winter and have a good set of tires, I think I'll be just fine...

[PR FR-S]

Originally Posted by BRZ21

it was my high school senior car haha

If that thing could talk, bet the stories would be pretty good. My Senior year car was a 1984 Buick Regal Sedan. Huge car RWD!!!! Good memories...

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by stugray

I want whatever you are smoking! You have almost everything you said backwards. You never want a racecar that understeers.

As for the RWD vs FWD in the snow.
My last supra (RWD no TC) was 100% useless in the snow.
If there was more than 1 inch of snow, I just stayed home from work.
My next car was a Solara (FWD w/ TC) and I could go ANYWHERE in the snow. I once witnessed a 4WD jeep spinning its wheels trying to climb up an icy hill.
I went right around him in the Solara w/ TC and up the hill with him watching me and cussing.

Watch F1. No F1 car oversteers unless the driver makes a mistake.

Trust me, understeer is quicker.