Here we go again! MR2 real this time?

[soundman98]

i suspect it keeps getting pushed to the side because there's not enough buy-in from corporate.

i mean, we all know the history of how the 86 came to be. that almost didn't happen until subaru got involved to screw with the test mule.

imo, the mr2 is an even harder sell. it could be a halo car, but they've already got the supra, 86, and corolla gr for that.

i guess the major question is what role would the car fulfill within the toyota lineup that isn't already filled by a current production vehicle? the supra is a grand tourer, the 86 is cheap fun, and the corolla gr is a limited edition track toy...

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by soundman98

i guess the major question is what role would the car fulfill within the toyota lineup that isn't already filled by a current production vehicle? the supra is a grand tourer, the 86 is cheap fun, and the corolla gr is a limited edition track toy...

From what I know & heard, engineers want it one way, but higher up wants other way. This is why you hear so many contradicting rumors. Issue is what higher up wants is near impossible ROI without another collab w other brand AND other R&D on the other brand. PLUS they keep moving the engineers… project keep get lost in translation from engineer to engineer. I’m not sure where it stand atm & honestly after Morizo stepped down, I’m not expecting this project see any light.

[Teseo]

Toyota should strike those dealerships who are jacking up prices like no tomorrow to fix sales/profit for future R/D

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Teseo

Toyota should strike those dealerships who are jacking up prices like no tomorrow to fix sales/profit for future R/D

um, toyota sells vehicles to dealers at a fixed price. toyota's still consistently selling every vehicle they build. so their numbers aren't changing.

[Capt Spaulding]

My limited understanding is that during last year’s supply crunch as dealers of all makes were hopping on the price gouging bandwagon, Subaru notified their dealers that doing so was egregiously inconsistent with the company’s “Love Promise.” I don’t know if the possibility of consequences was mentioned, but I’d be surprised if they weren’t.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

LOLOLOLOLOLOL
2012 C63 mileage at 14MPG means that most larger SUVs are the same or way better than your car. The GTi is better but then of course it means driving a GTi which is really to small for a family vehicle. Doesn't matter what the MR2 gets since it is useless to about 95% of the general public anyway.

Not sure what these comments are really directed at. My my previous comment my use of the words "lax mpg standards" was in reference to fleet mgp as well as footprint. Basically the multifaceted approach automakers are punished/rewarded for fleet performance.

And yeah around town I definitely get 14-15 mpg, sometimes worse. Because it's just too much fun not to hammer down the throttle for a few gears every chance I get. I actually recently sold the GTI, but it actually had as much, if not more, interior room than the C63. 100% large enough for a single child family.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

My limited understanding is that during last year’s supply crunch as dealers of all makes were hopping on the price gouging bandwagon, Subaru notified their dealers that doing so was egregiously inconsistent with the company’s “Love Promise.” I don’t know if the possibility of consequences was mentioned, but I’d be surprised if they weren’t.

The manufactures have far less control over the dealerships than people think. They are bound by contract to provide a certain number of vehicles and the dealerships are required to buy them. Unless that contract has a clause stating that the dealers can only sell the cars at a certain amount any action the manufacturer takes to control prices could be a breach of contract resulting in legal action. When the Ford CEO announced his "crackdown" on markups for the Mustang EV his wording was very precise. He didn't say there would be penalties or no EVs shipped to the offending dealerships he said that their allotments would be cut to the "minimum" and they would get no "extra" vehicles. This would be the contracts at work. He also didn't say they could not mark up but simply that "excessive" markups (some were marking up 200%) were frowned upon.

Yes markups suck but we live in a capitalist society where supply and demand sets prices. Nobody complains when there is a glut of something on the market and the prices drop. It works both ways. The very last thing that we want to see is the manufactures mandating maximum (or minimum for that matter) prices for their products as this could mess with the whole economy. Heaven forbid that the government steps in because once they start that how far will it go before they start setting maximum wages or price fixing everything?

The best control for car markups is for people to simply not pay them. Sure it means waiting a bit longer for that car but if they start sitting unsold on mark up dealers lots the practice would soon come to an end. Eventually the supply will catch up with the demand and the prices will drop but in the "I want it NOW" era consumers are their own worst enemy.

[alex87f]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Again, how are CUV/SUVs unreasonable? There are all different levels not just top trim expensive ones. For the most part they are reasonable, comfortable, efficient, etc.
Why buy an 86 when there are perfectly good two door cars in Europe?
If you are spending a yearly income on a vehicle you are either earning far to little or living well beyond your means.
There is a lot of rock throwing going on in his glass house!

They're ultimately heavier and less aerodynamic than a more streamlined wagon. And they're packing features such as 4WD or advanced terrain management which are useless to 95% of car buyers, and bloat development budgets, weight, etc. I'll agree though that many modern "SUVs" are really 2" jacked up pseudo-wagons with some black cladding.

I won't try to make my purchase of an 86 sound like a reasonable choice, we're on an enthusiast forum :-)

Regarding yearly income vs. car price, in the US the median income of a worker is around 54k, and the average new car price is around 50k.
Same dealio in France, average (not median) wage is 30k euro (though that's after social security, retirement and unemployment contributions), and the average new car price is around that amount after tax.

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The manufactures have far less control over the dealerships than people think. They are bound by contract to provide a certain number of vehicles and the dealerships are required to buy them. Unless that contract has a clause stating that the dealers can only sell the cars at a certain amount any action the manufacturer takes to control prices could be a breach of contract resulting in legal action. When the Ford CEO announced his "crackdown" on markups for the Mustang EV his wording was very precise. He didn't say there would be penalties or no EVs shipped to the offending dealerships he said that their allotments would be cut to the "minimum" and they would get no "extra" vehicles. This would be the contracts at work. He also didn't say they could not mark up but simply that "excessive" markups (some were marking up 200%) were frowned upon.

Yes markups suck but we live in a capitalist society where supply and demand sets prices. Nobody complains when there is a glut of something on the market and the prices drop. It works both ways. The very last thing that we want to see is the manufactures mandating maximum (or minimum for that matter) prices for their products as this could mess with the whole economy. Heaven forbid that the government steps in because once they start that how far will it go before they start setting maximum wages or price fixing everything?

The best control for car markups is for people to simply not pay them. Sure it means waiting a bit longer for that car but if they start sitting unsold on mark up dealers lots the practice would soon come to an end. Eventually the supply will catch up with the demand and the prices will drop but in the "I want it NOW" era consumers are their own worst enemy.

I'm with you on the idea of controlling prices by not paying them. But in a world of lemmings individual decisions and action have their limits.

It would be interesting to review Subaru's boilerplate dealer contract. I can easily imagine that some manufacturers' contracts contain "brand image" language. Subaru has spent a lot of time cultivating their image. I suspect they are jealous of it.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

I'm with you on the idea of controlling prices by not paying them. But in a world of lemmings individual decisions and action have their limits.

It would be interesting to review Subaru's boilerplate dealer contract. I can easily imagine that some manufacturers' contracts contain "brand image" language. Subaru has spent a lot of time cultivating their image. I suspect they are jealous of it.

Nothing says it is boiler plate but it would be enough to prevent control by the manufacturer. They need dealerships to sell what they make so they can either set up their own system or work within the private network they have now. Both have their good and bad points but the very simple fact that most dealerships are not company owned or run means there must be more good to that system.

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Nothing says it is boiler plate but it would be enough to prevent control by the manufacturer. They need dealerships to sell what they make so they can either set up their own system or work within the private network they have now. Both have their good and bad points but the very simple fact that most dealerships are not company owned or run means there must be more good to that system.

One word man - lawyers. The manufacturer is almost always the one writing the contract. It will say what they want it to say, in such a way as to benefit them the most. I haven’t seen Subie’s dealer agreement, but my experience with the motorcycle industry tells me manufacturers have their ways of leaning on dealers. Dealers are completely dependent on manufacturers for inventory. What models are available and when where high on the list of causes of sleep loss for every bike shop owner and GM I knew.

What I can say about the current discussion is that I heard from the local dealer and read from a couple of industry news sources that Subie wasn’t happy with the gouging and said so.

I went shopping for an Outback last December. The local yokels weren’t demanding over MSRP, but they did include a $2000 mandatory “convenience” package with each car. One of the things in was a windshield replacement policy. If yours was damaged they’d replace it. Given the number of windshields that get broken around here and the cost of replacing and calibrating an “eyesight” that didn’t seem too outrageous. Still, passed on the car.

[Capt Spaulding]

Now, I don’t know if either of us has seen the contract we’ve been discussing. I know I haven’t. But it seems to boil down to a prediction as to who needs whom the most. My experience with vehicle retailing is limited to motorcycles and relatively few new cars.

My bike dealer relatives and friends always seemed to be, more or less, at the mercy of their distributors for inventory. Car dealers may have more cushion to weather inventory shortages. That said, knowing a wee bit about contract law I can say with some confidence that they are always written to benefit the writers. I don’t believe there is any kind of equality between manufacturers, distributors, dealers, and retail buyers. At each step down that chain the available end of the stick gets shorter and dirtier.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The very last thing that we want to see is the manufactures mandating maximum (or minimum for that matter) prices for their products as this could mess with the whole economy.

Honda and Mercedes Benz has introduced fixed pricing in Aus.

[ichitaka05]

Trying not to bring hope to anyone by seeing this vid, but the design they’re showing off is decently close to the design I saw… maybe about 65% identical. As for the specs, idk. I’ve heard so many specs: kei engine (like one on the vid), GR Yaris/Corolla I3 engine, v6, I4 hybrid & lists goes on… either way, not sure the Toyota board will approve the new MR2 tbh.