Trail Braking and Rotation Questions

[jprice130]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

My biggest complaint is the car should be unloading and rotating under braking at that point. I tried braking straight, early, late.
The S2000 you dont even have to try and the car will rotate under braking. If I could have gotten the car to even rotate 30% under braking I would be at least 1 second faster. But the car behaves more like a FWD car. Plows under braking, early or late. Where I had to add more steering it was a car of coming in too hot and having to correct. My competitors who rode with me said: "Car understeers too much"

The other thing as I said is the damn brakes on the car are inconsistent. First two runs, nothing, next few better so I feel like my braking zones are always changing. Firm pedal but no consistency in autox. Thing is I feel I am consistent, maybe not consistently lighting fast, but my times reflect consistancy, and I am at that point where I feel as they say in racing school unconsciously competent.

I hear you on the differences between the S2000 and the FR-S/BRZ. After competing all last year with my FR-S and a friend's Lotus Elise (also setup a bit pushy), I had the chance to drive another friend's well-prepped STR S2000 CR for our last event. I spun his car completely on my first two runs trying to get used to the fact that the car could actually rotate with minimal effort. I finally got it together for my last couple runs and was loving it. I definitely became an S2000 fan that day.

As for your brakes, did you have the same issues with the stock pads? I only AutoX (no tracking), so I still have the stock pads and fluid. I've had lots of experienced guys that drive other cars drive my car and they are amazed at the performance of the stock brakes (in a straight line anyway...). It's the first thing everyone says when they get out of my car: "Those brakes are stock?!".

[rice_classic]

The s2000 is an example of a RWD car in which the front works very very welland that's in part due to its front suspension design.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by jprice130

I hear you on the differences between the S2000 and the FR-S/BRZ. After competing all last year with my FR-S and a friend's Lotus Elise (also setup a bit pushy), I had the chance to drive another friend's well-prepped STR S2000 CR for our last event. I spun his car completely on my first two runs trying to get used to the fact that the car could actually rotate with minimal effort. I finally got it together for my last couple runs and was loving it. I definitely became an S2000 fan that day.

As for your brakes, did you have the same issues with the stock pads? I only AutoX (no tracking), so I still have the stock pads and fluid. I've had lots of experienced guys that drive other cars drive my car and they are amazed at the performance of the stock brakes (in a straight line anyway...). It's the first thing everyone says when they get out of my car: "Those brakes are stock?!".

Nick Barbato? Tell him I said hi

The FRS/BRZ has abnormally large brakes for it's power/weight (but it's still not enough for track use).

[jprice130]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Nick Barbato? Tell him I said hi

Nick doesn't compete in our region, but the CR I drove is prepped similarly. If he ever comes our way, I'll introduce myself and tell him you said hi!

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by jprice130

Nick doesn't compete in our region, but the CR I drove is prepped similarly. If he ever comes our way, I'll introduce myself and tell him you said hi!

Hmmmm I don't have a second guess... but I have James Yom terrorizing the locals here :p

(CR owners generally all know each other)

[jprice130]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Hmmmm I don't have a second guess... but I have James Yom terrorizing the locals here :p

(CR owners generally all know each other)

Ha, ha, didn't mean to leave you guessing. The CR I drove belongs to Mike Licursi (Yellow CR). Mike is roomates with Jadrice Toussaint who sold his White CR to James (If I remember correctly). Both Mike and Jadrice have helped me a lot over the last couple years with prepping my FR-S/BRZ (yes, I've had both) and with drives in their cars. Really nice guys with awesome cars!

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by jprice130

Ha, ha, didn't mean to leave you guessing. The CR I drove belongs to Mike Licursi (Yellow CR). Mike is roomates with Jadrice Toussaint who sold his White CR to James (If I remember correctly). Both Mike and Jadrice have helped me a lot over the last couple years with prepping my FR-S/BRZ (yes, I've had both) and with drives in their cars. Really nice guys with awesome cars!

Small world!

[Dezoris]

Ok this is much as I can pull out of the plates with a 10mm drop.
Will try this and see if its anymore eager to rotate.

[CSG Mike]

It should rotate way better

[Dezoris]

Here is the update with new alignment. I was only able to run morning session and still managed second in class out of 10.

The car is better, but I am still not getting the rotation I want and, for autox I am starting to hate the AP brakes at these events but regardless thanks for tips. With some minor adjustments in driving I should be able to run consistently in top 10 overall and 1-3 in class for sure. Need to get somethings sorted then try some national events.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf59TBXekjw"]Supercharged FRS | Autox Update - YouTube[/ame]

[ZDan]

Ohlins spring rates are out to lunch, IMO. Same rate springs all around means the front *wheel* rate is about 60% stiffer than rear *wheel* rate. And WHEEL rate is what is important. Stiffer rear springs is what I'd do.

Disconnecting the front bar seems like a bad idea to me. More body roll, less camber relative to the ground. Yeah, you'll get more mechanical grip up front and lose some in back as the outside rear is worked harder, but you'll get the same effect with stiffer rear springs and you'll get *less* body roll, so better outside front camber while cornering.

Regarding tire "wear markers" referred to on the first page of the thread, those just show where the treadwear indicators are. They are not for indicating whether or not you have too much or too little camber or tire pressure. Ignore them for car setup.

[kster1]

I'm also on Ohlins with the standard spring rate and here my thoughts.

With the rest of the suspension stock, I installed the Ohins and went out to a track event. I felt the car was pushing way too much (the camber was something like -2.4F/-1.8R) and this was confirmed with a pyrometer. The front tires were working a lot harder than the rears. I'm sure my driving style plays a factor here but I much prefer the loose feeling of say the S2000 rather than this understeer.

At a temporary fix, I'm now running a rear sway bar from a ~2008 WRX and this helps rotation quite a bit. But my plan is to go back to the OEM rear sway bar and instead swap out the springs to something around 350F/425R (lbs/in).

[CSG Mike]

@Dezoris: Do you have data with wheel speed sensors and an accelerometer? I may be able to figure out a cause and possible solutions.

[gramicci101]

Would it be worthwhile to run maxed out camber bolts in order to get more adjustability at the top hat?