Looming competition

[strat61caster]

Chevy could knock this out of the park, at least in terms of the enthusiast community.

~ 3,000 lbs
Turbo I4 around 200-230 hp base price around the 86 $25k, whatever their version of EcoBoost is, would result in decent mileage
NA Performance V6 >250 hp, around $30k-$35k, would decimate 370Z sales along with every other sports car under $40k
Get the guys who've gotten the Corvette sorted out and slap on a good but livable suspension setup onto this thing and you've got a winner, all the guys around here complaining about the power will be gone overnight and I won't miss them.

Amenities on par with an FRS or an STI and they're good to go. Don't know how well it will sell but I know I would go for a test drive against an FRS if I was in the market based on the above specs and price points.

[R3d]

Originally Posted by dem00n

That's why everyone is hating on Honda for not making an actual car for the enthusiast?

no im saying that's why honda has such a fan base for the civic, its been around for so long !

compared to gm that keeps pooping up new models and then deleting em !

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by R3d

no im saying that's why honda has such a fan base for the civic, its been around for so long !

compared to gm that keeps pooping up new models and then deleting em !

Yeah man! No naming conventions that have history, all stupid names like the Camaro, Impala, Corvette, Malibu, Suburban, and Regal.

Your point is a valid one though, GM is not known for consistency, but Honda is not a gold standard, CRZ? CRV? Crosstour? Ridgeline? wtf are those?

[rice_classic]

CRV's been around for several years and is a top seller. CR-Z was suppose to be a modern continuation of the CRX/Del-Slow but alas, it was an embarrassment.

Ridgeline and Crosstour. The Ridgeline is a rather good vehicle but I cannot defend the Crosstour. I think Honda owes the world a public apology for that one.

[rice_classic]

I'm intrigued by the 130R concept. I absolutely hope GM pulls it off. I don't have faith, but I have hope.

What don't I have faith in? Chassis balance, weight and proper suspension. GM making light, well balanced, affordable sports cars? I'll believe when I actually sit in one.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

CRV's been around for several years and is a top seller. CR-Z was suppose to be a modern continuation of the CRX/Del-Slow but alas, it was an embarrassment.

Ridgeline and Crosstour. The Ridgeline is a rather good vehicle but I cannot defend the Crosstour. I think Honda owes the world a public apology for that one.

I don't doubt the validity of those vehicles, only that Honda also has several cars with relatively little history and nonsensical naming, they have also killed good cars (Integra/RSX, S2000, CRX) and not so memorable (Beat, Element, Passport) that could have evolved into something long term and legendary (MX5).

Critisizing GM for not having branding that's long term seems silly to me, FYI the Suburban has been in production since 1935, Honda was founded in 1948.

[pierce88]

Whoever made the comment about the 2014.5-2015 Mustang was spot on.

A base GT at $30k weighing 3000-3100lbs will be a MONSTER with the 5.0 motor pushing over 400hp from the factory.

That Aluminum Frame/Chassis will revolutionize that car...

[OrangeJuleas]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

CRV's been around for several years and is a top seller. CR-Z was suppose to be a modern continuation of the CRX/Del-Slow but alas, it was an embarrassment.

Ridgeline and Crosstour. The Ridgeline is a rather good vehicle but I cannot defend the Crosstour. I think Honda owes the world a public apology for that one.

I went to a Honda dealer in the Valley asking the guys if they had any new or used sporty cars (I was looking for an S2000). They showed me a used '06 350Z convertible, which was pretty meh, and I basically said I'm open to anything new and sporty (even if it had a *gasp* automatic). He said "Well, there's the CR-Z but I don't think you would want that. Not many people do". He was almost embarrassed to mention it. I wonder who their target market was for that car?

OTOH, I think the Crosstour actually does look kind of nice (if you're into that type of vehicle). It is supposed to compete with the Venza, which is based on the Camry. The Ridgeline won a bunch of awards when it came out, although it was fairly cost-prohibitive.

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by OrangeJuleas

I went to a Honda dealer in the Valley asking the guys if they had any new or used sporty cars (I was looking for an S2000). They showed me a used '06 350Z convertible, which was pretty meh, and I basically said I'm open to anything new and sporty (even if it had a *gasp* automatic). He said "Well, there's the CR-Z but I don't think you would want that. Not many people do". He was almost embarrassed to mention it. I wonder who their target market was for that car?

OTOH, I think the Crosstour actually does look kind of nice (if you're into that type of vehicle). It is supposed to compete with the Venza, which is based on the Camry. The Ridgeline won a bunch of awards when it came out, although it was fairly cost-prohibitive.

1) The CRZ was aimed at the sporty coupe market, and came out when gas prices were fairly high. But since Honda didn't update its hybrid system, the result was fairly clunky and wasn't able to perform as well as they had hoped. That and it didn't really look that good and it was only a 2-seater.

2) The Ridgeline was designed well, but the fact that it was never offered with a V8 killed it here. Being "Murca, we need to have V8s in our trucks or nothing at all (with the possible exception of the EcoBoost v6).

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by HunterGreene

2) The Ridgeline was designed well, but the fact that it was never offered with a V8 killed it here. Being "Murca, we need to have V8s in our trucks or nothing at all (with the possible exception of the EcoBoost v6).

Haha no.

The F150 is the best selling vehicle in America for a very good reason: utility.

Towing is the name of the game, even the smallest F150 (3.7L V6) has a towing capacity of 5,500 lbs compared to the Ridgeline's 5,000 lbs and can be optioned up to 10,000 lbs with the V8. Even the base Tundra can tow 6,800 lbs. Just like people buy the FRS for it's potential, people buy trucks for the same reason, "what if I upgrade to the 30' trailer? the 25' boat?", not to mention the cost, current F150 starts at $24k, Ridgeline $29k, Tundra $26k. Don't forget usable volume in the bed or the high sides making it difficult to load.

Ridgeline is great for a hassle free truck with medium grade towing, for someone who won't quite give in to an SUV but wants everything an SUV offers. It does well otherwise it wouldn't be around, it fits a niche, but when you're looking for a full sized pickup to do truck things (towing, off road), there are many that do what it does better for less money.

[OrangeJuleas]

Originally Posted by HunterGreene

1) The CRZ was aimed at the sporty coupe market, and came out when gas prices were fairly high. But since Honda didn't update its hybrid system, the result was fairly clunky and wasn't able to perform as well as they had hoped. That and it didn't really look that good and it was only a 2-seater.

2) The Ridgeline was designed well, but the fact that it was never offered with a V8 killed it here. Being "Murca, we need to have V8s in our trucks or nothing at all (with the possible exception of the EcoBoost v6).

I think the CRZ looked well enough, for me the issue was incorporating an unnecessary hybrid system in a car that was a throwback to a non-EV vehicle. I mean, people wanted a sporty, light car and what they got was designed more for emission control than sport. They designed it for the neo-hipster crowd who wanted a Prius but something less mainstream, definitely not the enthisiasts who were the driving force behind the idea. I mean, why else would they name it the CRZ? It is a spiritual successor without the "spirit".

And while I have never owned a truck personally, I totally agree with your logic on the second point. Considering that the truck was probably meant less for pulling obscene amounts of weight and more for towing your seadoos, I think most people didn't see the point in it. People always seem to want more than they need (i.e. the huge V8 when a V6 will do).

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Haha no.

The F150 is the best selling vehicle in America for a very good reason: utility.

Towing is the name of the game, even the smallest F150 (3.7L V6) has a towing capacity of 5,500 lbs compared to the Ridgeline's 5,000 lbs and can be optioned up to 10,000 lbs with the V8. Even the base Tundra can tow 6,800 lbs. Just like people buy the FRS for it's potential, people buy trucks for the same reason, "what if I upgrade to the 30' trailer? the 25' boat?", not to mention the cost, current F150 starts at $24k, Ridgeline $29k, Tundra $26k. Don't forget usable volume in the bed or the high sides making it difficult to load.

Ridgeline is great for a hassle free truck with medium grade towing, for someone who won't quite give in to an SUV but wants everything an SUV offers. It does well otherwise it wouldn't be around, it fits a niche, but when you're looking for a full sized pickup to do truck things (towing, off road), there are many that do what it does better for less money.

Funny that you posted this right before I posted mine. A good example of the "well I might need it down the line, so I might as well get it now" thought process that goes into people buying much more than they will need.

Example - I had a moonroof in my last car. It was an extra cost, obviously. If I could make a ratio as to how many times it was open vs. not open, then I would probably come to the conclusion that it used approximately 0 times ("but I might want it one day, and then what???")

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Haha no.

The F150 is the best selling vehicle in America for a very good reason: utility.

Towing is the name of the game, even the smallest F150 (3.7L V6) has a towing capacity of 5,500 lbs compared to the Ridgeline's 5,000 lbs and can be optioned up to 10,000 lbs with the V8. Even the base Tundra can tow 6,800 lbs. Just like people buy the FRS for it's potential, people buy trucks for the same reason, "what if I upgrade to the 30' trailer? the 25' boat?", not to mention the cost, current F150 starts at $24k, Ridgeline $29k, Tundra $26k. Don't forget usable volume in the bed or the high sides making it difficult to load.

Ridgeline is great for a hassle free truck with medium grade towing, for someone who won't quite give in to an SUV but wants everything an SUV offers. It does well otherwise it wouldn't be around, it fits a niche, but when you're looking for a full sized pickup to do truck things (towing, off road), there are many that do what it does better for less money.

You can still chalk it up to a lack of power. I was just speaking in more general terms than you.

[mike the snake]

America could hit one out of the park with a small, lightweight car like the BRZ or Miata, bare bones (AC, radio, power windows, and not much more) and simply put an LS V8 in it with a 6 speed manual.
IMO they were on the right track with the GTO, the new Caddilac is pretty badass but expensive, but maybe something like a Miata-ish or Z3/4 with a 400hp LS1 I think would be wicked.

It would be in a class of it's own, and they could easily make the price nice and low. Use existing parts and engines, leave out nice interior, carpets, extra doo-hickeys, just make an enthusiast car, but make it look good! No "baby shoe (focus) cars, and this 135 wannabe R130 thing is just plain ugly. If they made a mini-corvette that would be cool..

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by mike the snake

America could hit one out of the park with a small, lightweight car like the BRZ or Miata, bare bones (AC, radio, power windows, and not much more) and simply put an LS V8 in it with a 6 speed manual.
IMO they were on the right track with the GTO, the new Caddilac is pretty badass but expensive, but maybe something like a Miata-ish or Z3/4 with a 400hp LS1 I think would be wicked.

It would be in a class of it's own, and they could easily make the price nice and low. Use existing parts and engines, leave out nice interior, carpets, extra doo-hickeys, just make an enthusiast car, but make it look good! No "baby shoe (focus) cars, and this 135 wannabe R130 thing is just plain ugly. If they made a mini-corvette that would be cool..

Yeah, something that would accelerate faster than the vette, probably handle better, and cut deeply into corvette sales. Yeah, that ain't gonna happen.

Besides, in this "minimalist" niche we are talking about, one of the things that does factor is fuel economy. Other than weekend warriors, I don't think you would see many people picking up this "baby" vette.