Second Generation FT86 Confirmed

[carma143]

Subaru is different. It states in the article how Subaru doesn't want to expand any further. It wants to keep it's "niche" appeal.

I doubt they'll abandon what makes the twins so great, a cheap, reliable, simplistic, lightweight FR with "just enough" horsepower so it can be wrung out even on main roads.

The twins aren't geared towards the masses, and I don't think Subaru wants it to be.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

I'm pretty sure our Forester came from Japan because they picked it up from the port. There's no magic in Japan, though. Much and maybe even most of quality comes from processes and design, assembly workers. Except in British cars.

There was a day not too long ago when there was a distinct difference between the quality of Japanese built and NA built cars. And as you said, it was mostly through much greater processes and attention to them that the Japanese had used for a long time. It is only in the last 15 years or so that the NA manufacturers are starting to catch on and use some of the process management tools that the Japanese have used for half a century that we are seeing a huge upswing in the quality of the vehicles made here. The "get 'em on the road now quality be damned" mentality I recall from my early years in the industry has been gone for a while now.
Once the NA companies started embracing such systems as Kaizen, Lean, Six Sigma, etc there was a marked increase in quality and productivity. Anybody want to guess where all those systems originated?

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Oooh, good call with those cars, however I would argue quite staunchly that the best generations were NOT the last generations with the DC5 Integra picking up weight and MacPherson struts, the MK4 Supra being more a grand-touring car than the sportier Mk2 & 3 and the FD being rather unattainable and tempermental compared to the much more reliable and playful FB/FC, not to mention the FE could be accused of not having a fraction of the edge of the 7's.

That may all be true, but we know which ones are considered iconic and which ones are barely considered at all.

[go_a_way1]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

What car has gotten significantly better in the second generation? Especially a sports car? They always get heavier with the edges taken off (some say it's already happened with the new FR-S spring rates being taken from the BRZ).

Well, the ND got lighter but lost even more edge so I guess that's a wash.

What about the Z family?? Z31 300zx to the Z32 300zx to the 350Z to the 370Z??

Edit: didnt read the whole thread lol

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by carma143

Subaru is different. It states in the article how Subaru doesn't want to expand any further. It wants to keep it's "niche" appeal.

I doubt they'll abandon what makes the twins so great, a cheap, reliable, simplistic, lightweight FR with "just enough" horsepower so it can be wrung out even on main roads.

The twins aren't geared towards the masses, and I don't think Subaru wants it to be.

Subaru and Toyota are both for profit companies. If they can make more by "upgrading" the cars they will. If anybody thinks that Subaru will just stay where it is now to fill a niche market then we can kiss them goodbye. The super car manufactures can get away with that business model but a company based upon low cost, mass produced cars must grow or die.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

There was a day not too long ago when there was a distinct difference between the quality of Japanese built and NA built cars. And as you said, it was mostly through much greater processes and attention to them that the Japanese had used for a long time. It is only in the last 15 years or so that the NA manufacturers are starting to catch on and use some of the process management tools that the Japanese have used for half a century that we are seeing a huge upswing in the quality of the vehicles made here. The "get 'em on the road now quality be damned" mentality I recall from my early years in the industry has been gone for a while now.
Once the NA companies started embracing such systems as Kaizen, Lean, Six Sigma, etc there was a marked increase in quality and productivity. Anybody want to guess where all those systems originated?

Didn't sigma come from Ancient Greece?

That all said, there are still crap design decisions made in a lot of cars, all to hit a price point. Modern BMWs often have crap trim pieces. The second gen CTS was plastic fantastic in build quality. I test drove a 3-year-old CTS-V with the NA Vette engine. It was about to fall apart. I'm amazed no engine parts fell out as it rattled down the road.

So it's a complex story.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

That may all be true, but we know which ones are considered iconic and which ones are barely considered at all.

>400,000 sold, Porsche performance at half the price and twice the reliability:


Generation 3/4:


I really wish I could defeat the internet hype train on the Mk4 Supra but I'll admit failure on that one. But damn do I love how the Mk2 looks.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

Didn't sigma come from Ancient Greece?

That all said, there are still crap design decisions made in a lot of cars, all to hit a price point. Modern BMWs often have crap trim pieces. The second gen CTS was plastic fantastic in build quality. I test drove a 3-year-old CTS-V with the NA Vette engine. It was about to fall apart. I'm amazed no engine parts fell out as it rattled down the road.

So it's a complex story.

Oh no doubt at all! The bad decisions are not always just to hit price points (although many are) though. Cars are designed and made by people and people are known to screw up sometimes. If no other people catch it then some shoddy stuff hits the market.

[carma143]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Subaru and Toyota are both for profit companies. If they can make more by "upgrading" the cars they will. If anybody thinks that Subaru will just stay where it is now to fill a niche market then we can kiss them goodbye. The super car manufactures can get away with that business model but a company based upon low cost, mass produced cars must grow or die.

But hasn't Mazda used the Miata (MX-5) to fill a niche market?
I'd say, with their latest offering, that the Miata has stayed true to it's roots, even after 25 years. From here:
we can see that the twins still sell significantly more than the Miata, though less compared to how well the Miata sold 10+ years ago.

I believe there is still hope.

[Braces]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

People often mistake advancement with losing the edge. Which Integra was the best? Not the first gen. Which Supra? Which RX-7? There's no rule here. Any new generation of twin will be turboed because of fuel economy requirements. I'd like to see an EV version. That would be a blast.

I agree.

But the original 240Z is one glaring example of not getting better with future models.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by carma143

But hasn't Mazda used the Miata (MX-5) to fill a niche market?
I'd say, with their latest offering, that the Miata has stayed true to it's roots, even after 25 years. From here:
we can see that the twins still sell significantly more than the Miata, though less compared to how well the Miata sold 10+ years ago.

I believe there is still hope.

One car does not mean they are focused on filling a niche market. You do know they make many other models right? (JK not mean sarcasm).
Where are their other niche market cars now? What happened to them before they faded out?
Subaru may be able to keep the BRZ alive by hanging onto Toyota's coat tails but if they are counting on it to keep them moving forward they need to increase the sales not just maintain them. To do that they have to appeal to a larger market share.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

>400,000 sold, Porsche performance at half the price and twice the reliability:

Generation 3/4:

I really wish I could defeat the internet hype train on the Mk4 Supra but I'll admit failure on that one. But damn do I love how the Mk2 looks.

The old RX-7 is a fun car, but it just doesn't get the love. Why is that?

Not much love for the first or second-gen Integra. Why is that?

Not much love for any gen of Supra but gen 4. Again, why?

Looks are possibly the biggest reason. All the early gens of those cars look... old. Including your favorite Supra. The MkIVPoopra, FD, 300ZX, and DC4 all have hot, modern-looking bodies.

[DAEMANO]

IMO Refresh of current chassis happens in 2017 for Europe and Asia and in 2018 as a 2019 model for North America.

Roughly the same time (2018-2019 global launch) the S-FR is introduced.

The all new 86 chassis we wont see until 4 years after that. Where it gains power but no weight due to Electric Supercharging and improved materials. It will have more GT like road manners (improved damping, more sound insulation, upgraded interior HVAC/Entertainment electronics). This will raise the base price to ~$31k. A N/A model will also be offered at $28k

Source, also my ass.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by Braces

I agree.

But the original 240Z is one glaring example of not getting better with future models.

Didn't they have fish oil in their shocks? My dad had a 280Z. I guess I'm like him because I have an FR-S, pretty much a perfect spiritual successor.