M14 wheels on M12 studs

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by fumanchu1

Whether or not it bound to happen at 99% certainty is not the issue here mav, the issue is that there IS a higher probability of failure than oem recommended specs. Tell me this why would you ever recommend something with a higher chance of failure (don't care if it's only 5-10% more likely to fail, it is more likely to fail and again not necessarily due to product itself but anyone who works with them).

But that's precisely what I am trying to get at... what exactly about this setup is more unsafe?

Ignore installation error and look at it from a purely engineering perspective. If large enough lug nuts to offset the 2mm loss of lug seat is used, what is unsafe about it?

No one has been able to answer this other than "it's not what the manufacturer designed it to be"

-alex

[fumanchu1]

Originally Posted by mav1178

But that's precisely what I am trying to get at... what exactly about this setup is more unsafe?

Ignore installation error and look at it from a purely engineering perspective. If large enough lug nuts to offset the 2mm loss of lug seat is used, what is unsafe about it?

No one has been able to answer this other than "it's not what the manufacturer designed it to be"

-alex

Well first off quality control for the aftermarket lug(depending on brand) would/could be less that QC for OEM part.

Material used (type of SS, etc.) could make it more prone to failure unless you can ensure 100% that same material was used with the same process and that the final product has the same reliability and resistance threshold(if it's not from the same factory values may be different, casting process, etc. depending on the item)

Surface isn't everything from a engineering standpoint , point of failures, resistance to heat, blunt force, threads strength and exact thickness (all these things can possibly affect the parts)

Can you guarantee 100% that the alternate parts use comply 100% with all of the same specs/resistance/thresholds in the same places and that they have the same quality control then you are unable to guarantee that your part meets aftermarket guy a QC but fails oem established QC.


And even with the proper torquing of the aftermarket lug you are assuming the result will be 100% the same as the proper sized lug/wheel studs and that's where you are wrong. From a physics standpoint, the increase spacing (2mm in this case) even if properly torqued is still present and therefore increase possible movement of the part by 2mm, increased movement by 2 mm in this case could very well be enough to increase the kinetic energy transferred to exceed the resistance threshold of the hub, wheel, etc.

It's not that it will cause failure it's that theoretically it increases the odds of such failures (as let's be honest there are still failures for any part however small the percentage is), in other words the oem part may break 0.003% of the time with the .3mm spacing(not actual spacing) whereas the increased spacing by 2mm puts it at 2.3mm and that could very well increased the possibility of failure maybe only to 0.0033% but that is still and increase in failure %.

(I would have to get a whole lot of testing done to come up with actual numbers so hopefully you understand these are hypothetical number)


While it is true that in most cases nothing will ever happened from a purely engineering/scientific standpoint you are creating additional stress on the part by not following the oem specs (think they haven't done any studies to figure what was the most resistant/efficient/less prone to failure way of getting this accomplished?) and that additional stress could bring it over the amount of stress/force needed to weaken the part that could eventually fail completely after some time in that less than ideal situation.

[fumanchu1]

So again not saying it will fail only that numbers wise the chance of failure do go up(by how much is another story completely) but tens of hundreds of varying factors come into play and any number of them isolated or combined with only a few may be fine but if you combine 50-100-200 of these small variances they may very combine to cause a noticeable drop in reliability or an increase in chances of failure.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by fumanchu1

And even with the proper torquing of the aftermarket lug you are assuming the result will be 100% the same as the proper sized lug/wheel studs and that's where you are wrong. From a physics standpoint, the increase spacing (2mm in this case) even if properly torqued is still present and therefore increase possible movement of the part by 2mm, increased movement by 2 mm in this case could very well be enough to increase the kinetic energy transferred to exceed the resistance threshold of the hub, wheel, etc.

And that is what I am getting at.

All the other parts about material quality, etc. is a moot point because no one makes the same assumptions about aftermarket M12 lugs with aftermarket wheels.

Let's assume all the lugs are from the same manufacturer, wheels from same manufacturer (OE supplier, meets JAWA/TUV standards).

The only possible increase point of failure is the extra gap in the wheel hole of a M14 wheel vs a M12 wheel.

In my hypothetical situation, assuming all other factors are equal and a properly centered, torqued down wheel via tapered lugs that are meant to be used with the wheel, what is unsafe about a M14 vs M12?

You can't increase movement by 2mm if the lug is centered and sits in the lug seat properly.

-alex

[fumanchu1]

Originally Posted by mav1178

And that is what I am getting at.

All the other parts about material quality, etc. is a moot point because no one makes the same assumptions about aftermarket M12 lugs with aftermarket wheels.

Let's assume all the lugs are from the same manufacturer, wheels from same manufacturer (OE supplier, meets JAWA/TUV standards).

The only possible increase point of failure is the extra gap in the wheel hole of a M14 wheel vs a M12 wheel.

In my hypothetical situation, assuming all other factors are equal and a properly centered, torqued down wheel via tapered lugs that are meant to be used with the wheel, what is unsafe about a M14 vs M12?

You can't increase movement by 2mm if the lug is centered and sits in the lug seat properly.

-alex

But failure of the lug seat is possible, now if the lug seat shattered on a regular m12-m12 mating the play is very small, on that m12-m14 setup the play would be greater.

My thoughts are just that it increase POSSIBLE failure points, not saying it will fail but in the event that it does it increase the amount/gravity of said possible failure.

I mean sure if you remove installer/user error and manufacturing tolerances it negligeable but here's the thing, real world circumstances are not in a vacuum and a lot of manufacturers have less than stellar Quality Control compared to oem manufacturers. So not saying it will cause it to fail simply that statistically it is more prone to failure and in the event of a failure the result may be worse than that of an oem properly fitted part.

I understand where you are coming from and the point you are making but you are assuming that all people will source adequate parts(tolerance, resistance, etc.) and remember to advise everyone that touches the car after of that situation that requires special directions (let's be honest a lot of users will not do one of those two things because people are generally idiots... again generally speaking )

I mean I can send something to space and not have it fail in ideal circumstances but in real world application if they sourced bad material or installer/builder did something wrong or followed a standard process of assembly instead of a specialized assembly process than the part that would survive atmosphere re-entry may no longer survive it due to these factors.(a bit off topic but illustrates the POV I am trying to make)

You do have to take into consideration improper install due to different assembly process and one cannot guarantee that proper install would be followed since it is not standard (i.e. change to winter tires and mechanic doesn't re-center and over-torque to ensure proper fit but only torques and assembles the part with standard method than that would possibly cause failure and you can refuse to take that into account but it doesn't mean it is not a possibility)

If OP does everything like it is supposed to and does all the maintenance by himself and remembers the special steps to take than yes he does reduce the increase in failure (to where it may be negligeable) but in that scenario you assume OP will do everything according to the required special instructions whereas I on the other hand expect people to fuck it up as they can't seem follow simple instructions like enter through the right door not the left one(yet they still go through the left door) so I don't expect them to follow and remember non standard instructions (and yes my faith in humanity is pretty fucking low)

[Varelco]

Alex is right once the clamping force is applied the diameter of the bolt hole is irrelevant it's not doing anything. In fact the whole 2mm thing is irrelevant because after some digging around, the taper seat on both M12 and M14 is the same, if clamping area was as important as I first thought then the M14 sized bolt/stud would compensate by being bigger which it's not.

Nengun confirmed to me today that the wheels I want are listed M14 to highlight that they are COMPATIBLE with M14 sized wheel fasteners aswell as M12. Therefore fitment is no issue.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by fumanchu1

But failure of the lug seat is possible, now if the lug seat shattered on a regular m12-m12 mating the play is very small, on that m12-m14 setup the play would be greater.

Wall of text aside, please explain how a 60 degree taper lug seat is different between a M12 and M14 wheel?

If, hypothetically speaking, we have a ~5cm^2 seat area on the M12 wheel, and the same 5cm^2 seat area is replicated on the M14 wheel with large lugs, how could this setup have more play?

That is my only point of contention with this whole thing. I don't care to run M14 wheels, but I do care about wrong info.

You CAN use M14 wheels on M12 studs as long as you use larger lug nuts to compensate. That is my only point and it is not a safety issue that is being brought forth in this thread.

-alex

[fumanchu1]

I said it would have more play in the event of a break or failure and it would. Your point as I have said still stands but you asked me to provide points to demonstrate I have done so. Now whether these point are likely to happen or not is not what you had asked(because you are right chances are nothing will ever happen) but in the event that it does in may amplify the damage; rate or speed of the failure.

I agree that it is not unsafe and presents little to no risk when everything is properly done, my point of contention is that in this day and age things are rarely properly done and that's where I believe an issue might arise.

I mean I've seen people go to Canadian Tire for an oil change and having the tech forget to add the filter back (seized engine and they were liable for all repair costs)

Like this you can use shoes with no support/less support for ankles to do sport and most likely nothing will happen but in the event that you do snap you ankle the shoe with proper support(oem) vs the one with less support(whose support was compensated by over tightening laces lets say) you injury should technically be lesser in the oem shoe as the support was not dependant on anything else whereas the other shoe does offer support but if the laces break at the same time you no longer have support and your injury could become more serious than it would have been (and yes I do enjoy using weird examples to illustrate my points).

Anyways you can and will recommend what you think is right and I don't disagree with your points in the situation where nothing breaks and that everything is done properly but if something is not done properly than that's where the increased/more pronounced failure could occur (not that it will but it could) i.e nut snaps then the play I mentioned does come into the equation

[fumanchu1]

Originally Posted by Varelco

Alex is right once the clamping force is applied the diameter of the bolt hole is irrelevant it's not doing anything. In fact the whole 2mm thing is irrelevant because after some digging around, the taper seat on both M12 and M14 is the same, if clamping area was as important as I first thought then the M14 sized bolt/stud would compensate by being bigger which it's not.

Nengun confirmed to me today that the wheels I want are listed M14 to highlight that they are COMPATIBLE with M14 sized wheel fasteners aswell as M12. Therefore fitment is no issue.

I did agree that on clamped it is the same but in the event of a defect I also said the gap would come back in play as if a break did happen then the clamping force would no longer be properly applied (my argumentation is on the finer point of when a failure does happen the consequences could then be amplified by the extra gap).

Anyways I'm done arguing as I don't disagree with his statement as a whole just on some of the hypotheticals that could present themselves)

[adamg]

The most unsafe thing about this thread is the fact were talking about cheap cast wheels that have a higher chance of falling apart over OEM wheels or forged monoblocks or 2/3 piece wheels

[Varelco]

Originally Posted by fumanchu1

I did agree that on clamped it is the same but in the event of a defect I also said the gap would come back in play as if a break did happen then the clamping force would no longer be properly applied (my argumentation is on the finer point of when a failure does happen the consequences could then be amplified by the extra gap).

Anyways I'm done arguing as I don't disagree with his statement as a whole just on some of the hypotheticals that could present themselves)

No arguing mate, just a debate

[Dihudaxia]

Well, Yokohama wheels has yet to reply me, so i went to google what mav1178 mentioned about the lug seats size. Could not find anything until i chanced upon Project KICS wesbite selling Lug Nuts.

Here is what i found. M12 and M14 lug nuts are identical in external dimensions save for the internal thread width. See pic for their Leggdura Racing series nuts that come in both M12 and M14 sizes.


M12 Lug Info:

http://www.kyoei-ind.co.jp/sangyo/pr...LR_L&Nset.html

M14 Lug Info:

http://www.kyoei-ind.co.jp/sangyo/product/LR_M14.html



It would seem that since every single external dimension is identical, it would support mav1178 view's that all i will need to have fit is the correct lug nut, since the only thing clamping the wheel on is the lug seat width.


Comments?

[Varelco]

See my post #34 same conclusion as you.

[Dihudaxia]

I spoke to an experienced tire shop owner, he told me that M14 holes will fit M12 studs, same conclusion, its the Lug Nuts that matter.

Additionally, BBS/OZ wheels are also M14 drilled as standard. So far all BBS users don't seem to be running into any issues.